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Poker as Profession

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Nate

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You should consider the untenability of gambling as a life-long career when evaluating its morality.

Professional poker may be gambling, but it is also a skill, and as such is perfectly tenable as a life-long career, as shown by numerous people who do make a decent living off it.

The thing I've noticed is that gambling in any form (or stripping, for that matter) is usually not a quick or easy route to riches that you can the apply to some other pursuit.

@JMeganSnow- If gambling (or stripping) is the pursuit, then then it doesn't need to be a quick and easy route to riches. Do you have experience that shows that neither of these are viable ways to make money fairly quickly? As far as I know, strippers can make quite a bundle, and I'm pretty sure poker can as well.

Using a learned skill (any skill) to make money sounds perfectly moral to me, especially if it is something the person enjoys doing, takes pride in, and people are willing to pay for. If I spent years perfecting my poker skills, why shouldn't I take pride in the result? This is no more immoral than Kay Ludlow's career, or Richard Halley's- both learned a skill, provide others with entertainment from that skill, and enjoy utilizing that skill themselves. A person who pays to go see a play recieves a similar value from it as a person who is willing to pay to play or watch poker- perhaps more, because he is utilizing his mind in the second, whereas in the first case he is simply watching, and he has a chance of earning money himself in the second, where he doesn't in the first. Simply because the 'product' is an intangible one should not make it less valid.

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Using a learned skill (any skill) to make money sounds perfectly moral to me, especially if it is something the person enjoys doing, takes pride in, and people are willing to pay for.

I don't think stripping for money qualifies as being a skill that is productive. Yes both parties gain a value (money on the one hand, visual pleasure on the other), but it can hardly be called productive as the girl is selling her body, something that should be worth more than a few dollars.

Again I am no Objectivist but this seems obvious.

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Those who support the gambling industry haven't seen its effects. My family, especially my oldest brother, have and still continue to be hit hard by gambling. Poker is no exception. My brother dug himself deeply into debt because of poker. I don't care if it makes money, it is a terrible thing for society. People for some reason think they can win when they just can't. It ruins lives, separates families and for what? Making another millionaire. This is my problem with capitalism. Those at the top forget so easily where they came from. They don't remember the pain and suffering that their stuff causes. I hate gambling with a passion. It makes my brother's life so much harder. Not only does he have to fight his addiction to it every minute, but he has to work multiple jobs just to pay off his debts. Gambling may make a few people rich but for everyone else it drives them into a hole. I would be very happy to see it gone from the civilized world.

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Those who support the gambling industry haven't seen its effects.

What is your evidence for this sweeping assertion?

People for some reason think they can win when they just can't.
It is a mathematical fact that some casino games can have a positive expected value. For example, some types of video poker with certain payout structures.

This is my problem with capitalism. Those at the top forget so easily where they came from. They don't remember the pain and suffering that their stuff causes.

Those at the top got there by causing pain and suffering? Are you suffering when you buy your groceries? Somebody at the top had to arrange for those to be made available for your purchase. What precisely is your problem with capitalism? That some people are wealthy at all?

Gambling may make a few people rich but for everyone else it drives them into a hole. I would be very happy to see it gone from the civilized world.

There is such a thing as a responsible gambler. Furthermore, people make bad decisions to spend money on all types of things, not just gambling. Read some bankruptcy cases and see where some people's money goes.

Finally, a note on personal stories. Strongly though they might affect you, they are irrelevant as concerns the propriety of something. "My brother has a gambling problem" does not mean gambling should be banned. If you think that it does, you may find it helpful to look at discussion here on the proper function of government.

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I don't think stripping for money qualifies as being a skill that is productive. Yes both parties gain a value (money on the one hand, visual pleasure on the other), but it can hardly be called productive as the girl is selling her body, something that should be worth more than a few dollars.

Hmm, perhaps you have never seen a good stripper. :worry:

A good stripper does more than just get naked and sell her body. She sells a presentation in many respects similar to how people on broadway "sell their bodies". The fact that she does it naked seems to automatically bring out the prude in people. Now, perhaps not all of her audience is so concerned with her presentation as they are her naked state, but some appreciate a good performer moreso than some girl who just walks on stage and pulls her clothes off. Some strippers demonstrate grace in movement as well as athletic talent which makes for a much more quality, erotic experience. Others just shed clothing and offer a cheap, tawdry experience.

So I would have to disagree that stripping is by nature unproductive.

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A beautiful naked body should be shown off in the bedroom not in a strip club. Just my opinion.

Tell me, why should I be any more impressed with an atheletic gymnast over an atheletic stripper?

That you say it's your opinion is precisely my point. You don't find productive value in what a stripper does whereas other people do, as well as some of the strippers. Stripping is not inherently immoral or non-productive.

I don't find productive value in consuming alcohol for me, but I recognize the fact that other people do, therefore, I do not condemn the use of alcohol acontextually.

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Those who support the gambling industry haven't seen its effects. My family, especially my oldest brother, have and still continue to be hit hard by gambling. Poker is no exception. My brother dug himself deeply into debt because of poker.

Gambling has been around for ages, it has nothing to do with capitalism and free market. It is not gambling that destroys lives but the people with no self control. Its a shame your brother now has a hard life, but you really need to figure out if it was gambling that got him there or gambling was merely the tool he used to hurt himself. It would be like trying to argue guns should be banned if your brother shot himself. If gambling can be shown to be immoral in itself, then moral people will not indulge in it. This is how immoral laws and regulations aimed at taking away our personal freedoms get put into place with the idea that they are "saving us from ourselves".

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Tell me, why should I be any more impressed with an atheletic gymnast over an atheletic stripper?

That you say it's your opinion is precisely my point. You don't find productive value in what a stripper does whereas other people do, as well as some of the strippers. Stripping is not inherently immoral or non-productive.

I don't find productive value in consuming alcohol for me, but I recognize the fact that other people do, therefore, I do not condemn the use of alcohol acontextually.

I also do not see productive value in stripping. Back in college, durring one of my summer breaks, I worked as a waitress in a strip club. I have never seen anyone entering that club with the intension of experiencing 'the grace of female movement'. It is true that some of the strippers offer better presentation (better show) than others but their purpose is not the presentation. It is very different than going to a broadway show. I have never herd strippers claiming any sense of productive achievement ether - most of them were honest about the fact that they did it for the money.

Edited by ~Sophia~
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Well, I don't know anything about poker. But I have known several erotic dancers. Of course, the better looking ones made more money than the not so good looking ones. But, between the ones who were moderate to good looking, the ones who could actually dance made much more money. In fact, I knew one girl who did ballet and modern dance, and also was a stripper. I would say she was moderate in her looks-- she was in good shape, but not what I think most people would necessarily consider a knock out. But she was a great dancer. And she made a lot more money than girls who probably looked better but couldn't really dance.

Even though it's worked out that I've made a few friends or acquaintances who were strippers, I've only actually been in a strip club a few times. Some dancers' performances are silly or even disturbing, but some are inspiring-- I love the form of a female in the nude. A few dancers know how to present that in a way that's not degrading. But that's something that does take skill. And a lot of nerve.

I think it's possible (from my limited experience) that the working conditions of stripping might be in virtually all cases psychologically damaging to the dancers. But even still that doesn't mean that nothing is being produced by them. And it doesn't mean that they're just selling their bodies, and not their talent.

I have never seen anyone entering that club with the intension of experiencing 'the grace of female movement'.

I agree that strip clubs are not the same as Broadway shows-- and even old fashioned cabarets were perhaps more artful than modern strip clubs.

But I'm curious how you know that none of the guys in the strip club intended on experiencing 'the grace of female movement'? Even if they primarily wanted sexual arousal-- is that not sexually arousing to any men? Beauty of form and grace of movement? Is one naked breast the same as another, for all men who go to strip clubs?

Edited by Bold Standard
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But I'm curious how you know that none of the guys in the strip club intended on experiencing 'the grace of female movement'? Even if they primarily wanted sexual arousal-- is that not sexually arousing to any men? Beauty of form and grace of movement? Is one naked breast the same as another, for all men who go to strip clubs?

The dancing did seem to make the erotic experience much more enjoyable. I certainly do understand why. However, the customers that I talked to did not seek to experience 'the grace of female movement' without the nakedness. If the women were not naked their dancing - even if very erotic/artistic would not have brought these men into the club and made them spend a lot of money. In fact the owner of the club would remind their employees about this very fact almost every day (the fact that it was all about their ..... and not their dancing).

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However, the customers that I talked to did not seek to experience 'the grace of female movement' without the nakedness.

Of course not. Who wants to go to a strip club where the women don't strip? ;)

Oh wait, guys do it in my state all the time where nudity is not allowed in "gentlemen's clubs". The state thinks that men should not be able to look at naked women in clubs. I guess the state thinks it's not productive either. However, this is somehow better and more productive now since the dancers have to wear bottoms and tops or "pasties". Yea, that makes sense, if they perform with skill and grace AND wear clothes that's more productive.

That sounds more sarcastic than I intend it to be with the bulk of my sarcasm intend at the state and whoever supports such laws. (Despite the fact that I am a cop, I would vote against such laws given the chance) The point I'm trying to illustrate with my sarcasm is that it's ridiculous to evaluate the productive value under discussion based solely on nudity. I didn't talk to the same men you did, but I'd be will to venture that at least some of them ALSO enjoy women's gymnastics, ballet, soccer, etc., each of these activities showcasing different aspects of female form, grace and athleticism. I still think that most people's reluctance to put stripping on the end of that list is because it involves dirty, deviant sexual behavior (at least in their minds) and that should be reserved for the bedroom, in the missionary position with the lights out where now one has to see it, let alone enjoy it.

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I'd be will to venture that at least some of them ALSO enjoy women's gymnastics, ballet, soccer, etc., each of these activities showcasing different aspects of female form, grace and athleticism.

I raise my hand as one such man. I go to strip clubs on occasion. The entertainment value is tremendous at $12 to get in and a couple sodas at $2.50 each for what can be from 3 to 6 hours of hanging out with friends from both outside and inside the club.

I do not generally attend live events of the activities you listed, but I do sometimes watch them on TV. Form, grace, and athleticism? You got that right. In my teen years, I had a crush on Dominique Moceanu. And don't forget the women's beach volleyball they show on FSN sometimes. Oh, and figure skating! Sasha Cohen . . . ;)

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Those who support the gambling industry haven't seen its effects. [...] I don't care if it makes money, it is a terrible thing for society. People for some reason think they can win when they just can't. It ruins lives, separates families and for what?

Any rational person will not play for more money than he can afford to lose, knowing that there is always a chance of losing. Gambling does not ruin lives. Guns don't kill people. People do. It is solely the responsibility of the person gambling to ensure that he does not destroy his own life by playing. There are plenty of people out there who gamble without destroying their lives or their families. Banning those casinos could ruin more lives than allowing them does- Native Americans on land that isn't good for anything else, for example.

I also do not see productive value in stripping. [...] I have never herd strippers claiming any sense of productive achievement ether - most of them were honest about the fact that they did it for the money.

Well, if they're doing it for the money then it's obviously productive in at least one way, and they're achieving their goals without harming others or initiating force. In addition, I would just like to note that the statue of Dominique in Roark's temple was naked, showing that Roark, at least (if not Miss Rand herself), thought that the naked female form (in public!) was a very good way of showing the virtues of man.

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I still think that most people's reluctance to put stripping on the end of that list is because it involves dirty, deviant sexual behavior (at least in their minds) and that should be reserved for the bedroom, in the missionary position with the lights out where now one has to see it, let alone enjoy it.

That does not describes me. This is not the reason why I do not consider this as very productive activity. It is somewhat productive since those women are doing something to earn a living (instead of doing nothing and collecting public assistance).

I do not wish to keep posting about this topic further. I just want to mention that there was a reason why most of the women I met there insisted that this is only a temporary activity (even those who have been doing it for many years and had nothing going for them aside from this job still claimed - I am getting out as soon as I can). A girl does not grow up thinking - one day I am going to be a stripper. Let's just say that the atmosphere in the club was not that of a respect and artistic appreciation (and this was not some run down place ether). I will just leave it at that.

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I do not wish to keep posting about this topic further.

Okay.

Let's just say that the atmosphere in the club was not that of a respect and artistic appreciation (and this was not some run down place ether). I will just leave it at that.

Okay, you can say that. Just note that it's a far cry different than saying there is NO productive value in stripping. It also does not speak to all men, all strippers, or all strip clubs.

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@JMeganSnow- If gambling (or stripping) is the pursuit, then then it doesn't need to be a quick and easy route to riches. Do you have experience that shows that neither of these are viable ways to make money fairly quickly? As far as I know, strippers can make quite a bundle, and I'm pretty sure poker can as well.

I'll reiterate: they are usually not good ways to make a lot of money in a hurry that you intend to spend pursuing some real career . . . IF you don't like gambling/stripping/whatever. I'm not saying that you can't make money, perhaps even a lot of money, by stripping or gambling. What I'm saying is that you WON'T make a lot of money at it unless you invest a hell of a lot of time and effort (and, in the case of stripping, you might want to be pretty good looking, as well.) In other words,

Assuming you do invest the time and effort, though, there's no reason why you can't be successful.

Let's just say that the atmosphere in the club was not that of a respect and artistic appreciation (and this was not some run down place ether). I will just leave it at that.

Who said anything about "artistic" appreciation? Personally, I don't think that respect means a man has to view me as a sexless work of art in order to respect or appreciate me, because I don't think sex is dirty or perverted. And, if I were going to strip naked and dance provocatively, I'd certainly want his appreciation to be of a bit more sexual nature . . . I mean, who wants some dried up old twig with a madonna/whore complex?

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@JMeganSnow:

Are you making a comparison to other professions? (You seem to indicate it takes more effort and time than traditional professions.) If so, then "hell of a lot" is very little in relative terms.

Most of other, more traditional professions take a lot of effort and time to get anywhere.

I doubt that gambling/stripping takes that much effort compared to other fields. Gambling is still mainly non-professional activity, where it doesn't take much to be in the middle range of players. Compare that to other fields.

Even less goes for stripping. One thing that fuels its ratio of return/effort is its imbalance of supply and demand for stripping. (Not much competition? Bad reputation? Banned in many states?)

So, I doubt you need to invest that much time into it to make it worthile.

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@JMeganSnow:

Are you making a comparison to other professions? (You seem to indicate it takes more effort and time than traditional professions.) If so, then "hell of a lot" is very little in relative terms.

(snip)

So, I doubt you need to invest that much time into it to make it worthile.

"Making it worthwhile" (which depends on one's standards) and striving to be your/the best are too different things. This is one of the reasons why I distinquished between at least two different types of strippers and the experience they offer.

I don't see anywhere where she is making a comparison to other professions. And by "professions" (particularly since you say "traditional professions"), are you referring to doctors, lawyers, etc. which require extensive degrees? If so, I would tend to agree that they require a lot more work. Other middle ground occupations, I'm not so sure. Exercise, learning to dance, increasing coordination and flexibility, etc. Those things do require extensive time and effort, both to reach that stage, and to maintain it.

As far as gambling goes, professional gambling requires more skill and effort than I think you give it credit for, at least in the poker arena. Odds, table position, reading people and their tells, masking your own tells, knowing how to bluff, when to bluff, etc.; these things take considerable time to learn, develop and to keep sharp.

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Tell me, why should I be any more impressed with an atheletic gymnast over an atheletic stripper?

That you say it's your opinion is precisely my point. You don't find productive value in what a stripper does whereas other people do, as well as some of the strippers. Stripping is not inherently immoral or non-productive.

I don't find productive value in consuming alcohol for me, but I recognize the fact that other people do, therefore, I do not condemn the use of alcohol acontextually.

As a Christian I believe that stripping is inherently immoral because it produces lust in the eyes of the audience which is wrong and because the stripper is selling her body which is wrong. These things are wrong because God says they are wrong. Sure enough, empirical evidence from other forum members have backed God up on this one, saying that stripping is not done in an atmosphere of respect, and is therefore degrading (to all involved).

However even from an Objectivist viewpoint, can i not argue that it is inherently immoral? The stripper is selling her body. What could be more valuable to a beautiful girl than her body? To sell it for a few dollars indicates that she is making a sacrifice, ie she is trading her body (infinite value) for a few dollars. She comes out with a net loss and therefore stripping is immoral.

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These things are wrong because God says they are wrong.

Please do not bring this up ever again. It is logical nonsense.

What could be more valuable to a beautiful girl than her body? To sell it for a few dollars indicates that she is making a sacrifice, ie she is trading her body (infinite value) for a few dollars. She comes out with a net loss and therefore stripping is immoral.

What about modeling? Doing a nude scene in a movie? Doing a scantily clad scene in a movie? Being on a bikini team?

Maybe women on a "bikini" team should be wearing these? I mean, there's some hot action. Shoot, all they're missing is a bonnet.

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