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Expats and Objectivism

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volco

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*** Split from here - sN ***

For any newbies coming across this thread: nothing that Volco said above has anything to do with Objectivism; it is an anarchist/libertarian viewpoint.

Any newbies reading my above point should take notice that Objectivism is no way a prescription for public policy; but a philosophy that shows the student how there's a more rational and integrated way thinking about the World.

Thanks SoftNerd for again contributing to the image of Objectivists as keepers of the Temple instead of thinking creatures (worse when I know you are one). and btw, it is certainly not anarchist to have a zillion of profit driven governments. As for Libertarian, all Objectivist-agreed policies are.

I am not sure if Volco is talking about competing governments within a specific area (anarchocapitalism, which I disagree with) or simply wants to have enough small states, each with one government, that people can "vote with their feet" against by moving somewhere else, which would work so long as immigration/emigration are unrestricted.

Maybe I did hijack the thread, but I want people to be able to vote with their feet a LOT easier than they can now. I don't call for any kind of Anarchy as I don't believe it exists (othern than as a fancy name for a tumult).

I call for as many either states or autonomous or special regions (that is why I mentioned H.K. as well as Singapore). The smaller the better. And I explained all this because she asked about a Capitalist Society. Then we have to figure that out as it is certainly impossible as of here and now.

In the specific case of America (while I am calling for Americans to finally mo0ve to the suburbs of the world, instad of remainig in the Inner City), I'd only imagine ultra federalism, Ron Paul Style. Who is (gut feeling) crazy.

After all, a new way of more tranquil living did not arise in the city, but had people moving away miles away to the former pastures.

This is a metaphore for America and Central America maybe, but as I keep insisting, there is a Hong Kong in China, there is a Walt Disney World Buenavista private zipcode in the United States of America. Singapore, a benign Fascist dictatorship, seceded peacefully from an malignous Islamic dicatorship just 40 years ago!

I am proposing working and expecting more Buena Vistas, Hong Kongs and Even Singapores all around the World - as soon as possible.

Edited by softwareNerd
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Any newbies reading my above point should take notice that Objectivism is no way a prescription for public policy; but a philosophy that shows the student how there's a more rational and integrated way thinking about the World.

That is an awful, entirely false description of Objectivism. Objectivism includes a prescription for a political system called Laissez-faire Capitalism, which rejects the notion of multiple competing governments, exile, and pretty much all your fraudulent claims.

As for Libertarian, all Objectivist-agreed policies are.

That's nonsense. Ayn Rand's disgust of Libertarians (more so than of any other political group) is well documented:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians

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In first place, I appreciate your tone. It certainly denotes reason in action and a happy spirit.

That is an awful, entirely false description of Objectivism. Objectivism includes a prescription for a political system called Laissez-faire Capitalism, which rejects the notion of multiple competing governments, exile, and pretty much all your fraudulent claims.

Ayn Rand didn't go into politics, and insisted (Reference missing you should find it) that there was still a huge cultural work to do before "OBjectivist Politics". She defended Laissez Faire Capitalism, of course, but she also rejected The USSR and the UN. In fact I never heard a mention of her calling for World Government.

Now what I was doing was speculating about that time when a real Laissez Faire ´Society could happen. Whatever little Ayn Rand suggested on specirfic Public Policies she did in regards to the United States of America.

Since her heyday, Objectivism has become a lot bigger than America, and America has become a lot smaller in proportion. When Ayn was writing, most every country was a Communist Dictatorship, and the others Reactonary Dictatorships. The millions of American expats shopping around for governments didn't exist back then (well they were called soldiers). Times have changed.

I remember what is it you are refering to: Ayn Rand's fear of Governments degenarating into competing gangs, killing each other. Well, maybe a little more good will, or bona fide while reading and you'd discover I didn't mean that; nor are the "new" countries such a Singapore or even Eritrea and Timor, that way.

That's nonsense. Ayn Rand's disgust of Libertarians (more so than of any other political group) is well documented:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians

Yeah because they copied her ideas without aknowledgment. That was my point.

And if you are going to make this more complicated for the sake of sport, then I'll just tell you what I mean:

Ayn Rand was against the Fed. So are Libertarians. Princi'ple of no aggretion. Same there. etc, that's why I mean.

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Any newbies reading my above point should take notice that Objectivism is no way a prescription for public policy; but a philosophy that shows the student how there's a more rational and integrated way thinking about the World.

I assume that intelligent newbies are extremely questioning about Objectivism, and are unwilling to take anything it says as a prescription for anything.

I merely want to avoid confusion about what is and is not a position put forth by Objectivism. When you post things that are particularly libertarian, I'd appreciate it if you can add a disclaimer, so that a newbie at least has a small indication of this.

If your argument is convincing, then the newbie will adopt it, right?

Meanwhile, I'm concerned that a confused newbie might reject Objectivism prematurely because he thinks your argument is the Objectivist one.

So, go ahead an give him fuel to fire his questions about Objectivism, but do not allow him to think your view is Objectivism.

Is that too much to ask on a board where people can have a reasonable presumption that the views presented are close to Objectivism?

I'm not going to argue about the differences between libertarianism and Objectivism; there are enough threads on that topic.

Edited by softwareNerd
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1) Can you think of Objectivism as a system that can be applied A) to Man anywhere on Earth or B) just the United States of America?

2) IF answered A) then what do you think should be done with criminals? Is expulsion, as in exilium even thinkable? IF not why? IF yes, what precautions?

IF answered B) I'll remind you that Ayn Rand loved America because she chose to move there. She was an expat, then an inmigrant, then a citizen. She chose her country,. How in heavens can you say migration, expatriation, and so literally nation-shopping is not in the core of Objectivism? "I chose to be an American. What did you ever do, except for having been born?" A.R.

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I didn't open this thread, I wouldn't have opened it with such a statement, and I wouldn't have opened it at all. All of my above comments are taken out of context out of an unrelated conversation - of which I had the fault of derailing.

Since Objectivism has not taken hold in the one country that was more propense to it, Since changing the culture, when there are so many othr forces playing, might take too long (as in longer than for anothr worse cultural trend to take over the ruins of the current one),

Should we not indulge in imagining hypothetical ways of actually living in Capitalist Society where Objectivism is the prevalent culture you have to deal with (meaning not prevalent in absolute numbers so long as you can chose who to meet or stumble upon)?

Can't I indulge in my favorite interest: Studying past Civilization and thus knowing a newe level of it is possible?

And since Ayn Rand had the best definition of it: Setting Man free from men, then should I not discuss how to achieve a Civilization more in accord to that definition?

I don't know what Libertarianism means and I don't care to discuss it in itself. I am proposing something simple: analyzing the idea of voting with your feet, or better, shopping around for countries as a solution towards living a freer life.

The thread, if opened because of me, should then be called Expats and Objectivism

or Gulching even.

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  • 1 month later...

i guss new utopia (www.new-utopia.com) was or is a project like that to setup a freezone but maybe they got sued becuse it look nothing happend after 2007 ?

do anybody know other project like this porject ?

anybody try this outside usa ?

i guss the small oil gulf states expat/torusits zones dont countsd becuse htey don have any rights just temprory resdent premmits that can be take away whioute much work and frointer towens in 2. and 3 world countrys are maybe not a good place to live a free life away from goverments, even you can carry your gun there, ofen some <<organzatsion>> or comapnsy have more guns then you :)if it are stotic or hedonsitic freedom you want its maybe easyer to just buy some budget guidebooks learn 3-4 langues and buy a ticket since villaegs in those guidebook are not much under control of paper work can you can just move if the place change

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new utopia was or is a project (www.new-utopia.com) tax shelter trourims and clincis for drugs fda did not like like that but maybe it was justa fraud ?

is it more projects like this outisde usa ?

is it any faild projects like that wher the citizens got ther mony back ?

i guss gulf states expat/torusit/free trade zones is not real becuse they are not very much your rrights when you lose your rescident premmtis and its a lots of forinter towens in 2. and 3. world countrys wher you can carry guns but ofen its a certain <<organzation>> or some local good conected perosns more then you have maybe easyst thing are gust buy some budget guide books and learns 3-4 langeus and you could just buy a ticket and move on when they village you find change or the local police allways stay outise the local sex house place each weekend...

(sorry for my spelling its not my first langeus )

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Sorry to tell you but the closest thing you are going to get to what you want is one of the Libertarian-backed Free State Projects. Other than that you are pretty much out of luck unless you want to seriously compromise one area or another for the sake of the others.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Kluss, and everybody for that matter:

I am not calling for Libertarian UTopians or even plausible projects. America became a free country as a side effect, a secondary consequence of a very different intention: The -selfish- desire, necessity and will to conquer a new continent spiritually (Massachusetts Bay Colony) and materially (Jamestown).

Likewise Singapore is now one of the freest or at least more legally strong countries in the region not out of a desire to do just that and become an international convention center for businessmen; but out of a racist selfish chauvinist, self-preservatory, feeling that Chinese living in South Asia should have at least one country where they are majority and rule (look at the constant post-colonial anti-chinese pogromos of Malay and Indonesia).

That intention was not Capitalist (in fact for the firs years it was pretty Statist, and up to now the ruling party is an offshoot of the British Fascist PArty, just look at the logo or the admissions of his supreme excellency) but the result was.

The same could be said about the Gulf States and the proposed Al-Noor (Cities of Light). These are all fascist (along with Singapore) in origin, but the end product is a place where expats can chose to live for a while taking advantage of what this new countries and areas have to offer, but most importantly chosing to be there.

When a person choses to become a citizen or a guest resident of a place, the situation is purely contractual and coercion gets out of the equation.

The more countries there are to chose, the bigger the floating population. This floating population, the opposite of a refugee although both are migrants, by executing their choice to live or reside for X time in one country or region or another, is entering into a voluntary contract.

The issue of coercion under government only applies to those who live in the place where they were born - or to those who moved to a nation which later turned into a dictatorship or otherwise changed its terms of the deal (like Ayn Rand moving to a pre-Roosevelt America, and that's a light example)

What I mean by this very serious topic which I began with I didn't began quiet well, is that a free way of living (detached from Geography) is at the snap of my, and your fingers.

I don't need any new utopia, nor do you, nor any altruistic Libertarian who wants to create a free zone of peace. That's nice for a fiction novel but rather stupid as humans, specially powerful ones, usually do act in their own interest.

The expats Chinese in Malaysia created Singapore. 1/3 of the World Jews created Israel. The Arabs created Dubai, Bahrein, and maybe in the future Al-Noor Cities. China allows Hong Kong to exist; Panama offers free health-care or/and pension for mature expats; Bahamas and Berudas have very private isolationist laws that provide protection from extradition and legal and economic extortion from other countries.

This is evidence enough that one individual can enjoy different kind of liberties and entitlements(a bank account in Bahamas, a slave in Yemen (!), a free pension in Panama, or a Hotel-Convention Center in Singapore, or legal use of recreational drugs in the Netherlands) just by entering into a mutual non coercive agreement between the resident to become citizen and the host state.

When there are not too many states to chose from this looks like vassalage or serfdom with the liberty of the serf to chose whom to enslave himself to. However this liberty didn't exist back in the day of serfdom (or at least it existed one day a year as an exception, Saint George's day was the only instance serfs were allowed to move); while now with some money and will one can take a plane to about any country in the world.

While it's not as simple as I will put it: the more countries there are (each imperfect and created not to provide refuge or Libertarians but having their own selfish corrupt reasons) the more choices there are and more competition will (and IS) arise (arising).

When already existing countries compete to attract qualified or otherwise desirable people, the relationship between the newcomer and the host state becomes more respectful, businesslike, and devoid of coercion.

This happens both ways: First World countries such as Canada, invite Third World refugees to use them for social engineering purposes.

Third World countries such as Panama or Bahrein invite First World foreigners, as well for social engineering purposes (only they want to make their countries better not worse), just as Canada, but the result is that the newcomers have more leverage allowing the relationship to be actually contractual and non coercive.

An expat can chose when to leave. A refugee can't.

Hope you understand my point. It is very far from Libertarian Utopias and Pirate Islands, despite the beautiful and rather corny themes they allow for stories. It is closer to the unintended consequence (freedom) of a development strategy of many diverse recently decolonized countries.

This is a very optimistic outlook because it's realistic. I'm counting on greedy pious muslim millionaires creating overpriced hotels with some benefits (Al Noor) and racist outright fascist and rightfully paranoid Chinese (PAP's Singapore) to inadvertidly create a World with more options where non natives - but migrants can taylor my, and their lives from country to country as they see fit. No patriotism, no fealty, just business and rule of law.

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  • 3 weeks later...

but do you then realy need a citizenshipo ? why not just some backpacker guidbook and a good citizenship like british clombia or new zeland and some companys in a tax shelter ?

if you read the laws for trust/companys/banks you can get a lots of ideas how to organize things whioute bother the paperwork or maybe the pasports good backpacker guidbooks becuse they tell you abut motels hospitlas if you can trust the police and small viollages of the beat track and wher frindly minoritys are i think you forgot to talk abut paficic island too , reefuges hmm dont they have hided gold somwhere?

if not would they have afford to come to the 1. world in the first place? most of this banks just take gold or dollars in ther banks annyway.... not pirate utopias but dont pda whit torenets and bucnh of media files helps you make feel nice in a village :)

eh what will happen to this place swhen global warming get real ?

hmm not pirate utopias but dont pirate utopias/taz book and a ran from anarcho capiltilsi and laws form trusts incoperated make a good place for get good ideas ?

sorry for late posting

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but do you then realy need a citizenshipo ? why not just some backpacker guidbook and a good citizenship like british clombia or new zeland and some companys in a tax shelter ?

if you read the laws for trust/companys/banks you can get a lots of ideas how to organize things whioute bother the paperwork or maybe the pasports good backpacker guidbooks becuse they tell you abut motels hospitlas if you can trust the police and small viollages of the beat track and wher frindly minoritys are i think you forgot to talk abut paficic island too , reefuges hmm dont they have hided gold somwhere?

if not would they have afford to come to the 1. world in the first place? most of this banks just take gold or dollars in ther banks annyway.... not pirate utopias but dont pda whit torenets and bucnh of media files helps you make feel nice in a village :)

eh what will happen to this place swhen global warming get real ?

hmm not pirate utopias but dont pirate utopias/taz book and a ran from anarcho capiltilsi and laws form trusts incoperated make a good place for get good ideas ?

sorry for late posting

eh is this not just better version of the ppl in expat comunitys that can fix you guns/girls/frugs/work premsioon ?

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