Straight Edge

[xfireworksx]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life. for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it]. i have kept this lifestyle because i believe in its inherent rationality - that i don't want to put something into my system that would impair my ability to make rational judgements in any way. also, i don't want to cause harm to the only thing that can get me anywhere in life - my physical self.

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

[BlackSabbath]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life.  for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it].  <Snip>

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

I do drink a bottle of malt whisky, or thereabouts, a month.

I don't do drugs or smoke because those are very bad for you and I do have a thing about my health.

As for promiscuous sex, chance would be a fine thing.

[danielshrugged]

I don't smoke, primarily because it's an unhealthy habit--but also because it's an expensive habit. I don't have "promiscuous sex," primarily because sex is more important than that. I don't do drugs, because they are both unhealthy and can impair one's mind. Before college, I never had alchohol because of concerns about impairing my mind. But more recently, I have alchohol, especially wine, every now and then socially. I never have nor will I ever intentionally get drunk, though.

[Elle]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life.  for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it].  i have kept this lifestyle because i believe in its inherent rationality - that i don't want to put something into my system that would impair my ability to make rational judgements in any way.  also, i don't want to cause harm to the only thing that can get me anywhere in life - my physical self.

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

I am very familiar with this straight edge trend, although I personally do not practice it. While I will respect the fact that you have been edge your entire life I personally think there are various drawbacks to the lifestyle choice.

1. Group association. It is traditional for straightedge to focus around active involvment in the hardcore (music - for those of you who did not know) community, and when someone "breaks" edge they are kicked out of the crew.

2. Pretentious self-righteousness. I.e. thinking that you are better, more valuable, more valid a human being than someone else simply because you are straight edge and they are not.

3. False identification and application of this ideaology. Straightedge originates from a Washington DC punk band, Minor Threat. Meet their singer, he will explain to you what the "philosophy" (I use quotes, because it is more of an ideaology than a philosophy in my opinion) he created really means. It's about self-respect, as far as he is concerned. While I think that self-respect is important... I don't think it has to advocated within the collective group setting.

I'm not saying these attitudes are yours, only that they are prevalent in the straightedge community.

I'd also like to ask you if you are vegan/vegetarian, humanitarian, or enviromentalist (because MANY straightedge people also gravitate towards these - it is part of the activism of hardcore music). If you are, why?

I, personally, believe that straightedge is a backlash to a lifestyle that comes from irrational choices (i.e. drinking as an escape mechanism, drug addiction, and sexual promiscuity as a form of degrading the value of human emotions). You don't need to be straightedge to live a fulfilling life in which your values are aligned with your lifestyle and you are living in a productive way.

For example, I am happy to drink when I am in the company of people I value and we have something to celebrate or want to relax with a few drinks and just talk. However I would never drink to escape the world, drown my sorrows, or as a crutch. I don't smoke or do drugs for health reasons, I want to live as long as possible in as healthy a state as possible because there is so much to see and do. And as for promiscuity... do you need a group of straightedge bros to remind you that promiscuity (i.e. not knowing the name of the boy who is in bed with you) is a sure heading towards pyschological dangers in the long run if it becomes a common practice? Do you think having a few promiscuous encouters in your lifetime is going to send you directly to "hell" or devalue your life? -Only if you let it.

[DavidOdden]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life.  for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it].  i have kept this lifestyle because i believe in its inherent rationality - that i don't want to put something into my system that would impair my ability to make rational judgements in any way.  also, i don't want to cause harm to the only thing that can get me anywhere in life - my physical self.

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

I don't smoke, and I do drink, and make some of the best wine and beer known to mankind. It tastes so fine (plus there is the control-freak aspect of making your own and aiming for a standard). Virtually the only distilled liquor I consume comes from the seaward side of the Isle of Islay, and since it is virtually unobtainable in my state (i.e. location, not condition) I most certainly do not consume a bottle a month. As for the other thing, I'm a happily married man so let's not get into that. Referring to my main vice, moderate consumption is the key. Pleasurable experiences are the value. Remember, enjoyment is not a vice.

I oppose the trend that holds that man's rational faculty is highly fragile, so that for example, consuming any ethanol renders you incapable of reasoning. This seriously misconstrues the nature of rationality and the robustness of man. While I promised not to talk about the S-thing, lemme break my promise for a moment, because I don't see how promiscuous sex constitutes putting something into your system that impairs your ability to make rational judgements. Maybe you (or someone) can make the case that certain patterns of sexual behavior are evidence of a fundamental psychological problem, but the act itself doesn't impair reasoning. It also isn't harmful, unless you're stupid, but you can get the bug while being non-promiscuous and stupid. The conclusion there is simply, don't be stupid.

Using the "causes any measurable harm to the body" criterion as an absolute, you should probably not eat or drink anything, or at least only drink organic radish juice and eat raw tofu and Satan (forgot how it's really spelled). The question should really be considered in terms of comparitive value -- what value is there to you in drinking beer, and how does that compare to the disvalue. If you don't like the taste of beer or wine, then by all means, abstain. If you find that the value of ethanolic beverages derives from the reduced reaction times and general sensory numbing, then do rethink your values.

[Scott_Connery]

I don't have a problem with any of those principles. However, in my experience the sense of life of strait edge people is deeply flawed. I have never met a group more consistently bitter and angry.

[Jerry Story]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life.  for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it].  i have kept this lifestyle because i believe in its inherent rationality - that i don't want to put something into my system that would impair my ability to make rational judgements in any way.  also, i don't want to cause harm to the only thing that can get me anywhere in life - my physical self.

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

I guess I qualify as what you call "straight-edge" altho I don't think of it as a philosophy or as any big deal. To me, this is just normal. Also this is the first time I saw the term "straight edge".

And, contrary to what some people probably expect, I am not self-righteous or anything like that. I don't belong to a group or a cult or anything like that. I merely try to make rational decisions for myself. I don't give a rat's @$$ about decisions other people make for themselves. Not consuming alcohol does not in any way impair my ability to interact with people or to enjoy life. And I am not into some special kind of music that is somehow associated with living "straight-edge".

Most people probably see me as weird, but they don't have any problem with me.

To me it is obvious that a rational person tries to make rational decisions in everyday matters of living.

[RationalBiker]

I drank alcohol up to about 6-7 years ago then stopped. Long before I knew of Rand and O, I decided I liked having a clear head. Being exposed to drunks EVERY night at work also reminds me of why I won't drink again.

I stopped smoking at 13, just after I started. Nothing like going home and vomiting blood to discourage one from smoking.

I tried pot when I was 18, but I'm mellow enough (for the most part) as it is. Pot just made me appear dead. Never tried anything harder than that. (Yes, I had to admit that on my polygraph test to get on the PD, which at the time was not an automatic disqualifier. Now it is. You even have to agree not to smoke at all now.)

I was never one for promiscuity either.

So, I guess I'm straight edge myself now.

I do swear though.

Most people probably see me as weird, but they don't have any problem with me.

Same here Jerry. You got the right attitude, don't worry what other folks think.

So far, my son (15) appears to have no interest in smoking, drinking or using drugs. We taught him straight facts, and lead by example.

VES

Edit: PS: I just checked out this straight-edge site and man, all I can say is SCARY!!!

http://www.straightedge.com/forum/portal.php

And even worse...

WARNING: Don't click the following link if you don't want to see graphic images of self-mutilation!!!!! This guy "scarified" "X"'s into both of his arms.

http://toefur.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8...=asc&highlight=

[oldsalt]

Geez, thanks for nothin', RationalCop! Why do these people bother worrying over cigs, booze, drugs and sex when they have so much more to be concerned about? What good is a healthy body to individuals who are so mentally and emotionally unhealthy?

fireworks: Why do you think you need to belong to this group? Your decisions about the activities you mention certainly don't require it. I don't see, from the forum I visited, what the benefit of being associated with that bunch is, except to say that you belong somewhere. Simply belonging for the sake of belonging is a poor reason, especially to a group that uses its beliefs, not as something positive, but as a justification for bludgeoning others in their rage against the world. Merely being against something doesn't even rise to the level of an ideology, much less a philosophy for living life.

You've told us what you are against. What are you FOR?

[RationalBiker]

What good is a healthy body to individuals who are so mentally and emotionally unhealthy?

My sentiments exactly.

The only time I want to hear the words straight-edge from my son is if he's talking about geometry or technical drawing....

VES

[unskinned]

I agree with all the other posts. You don't know what you are missing. One of the founding fathers wrote "God made beer to make us happy" (or something like that). I think it was Ben Franklin. Anyway, it is possible to enjoy alcohol and tobacco with out being foolish and hurting oneself.

[xfireworksx]

fireworks:  Why do you think you need to belong to this group?  Your decisions about the activities you mention certainly don't require it.  I don't see, from the forum I visited, what the benefit of being associated with that bunch is, except to say that you belong somewhere.  Simply belonging for the sake of belonging is a poor reason, especially to a group that uses its beliefs, not as something positive, but as a justification for bludgeoning others in their rage against the world.  Merely being against something doesn't even rise to the level of an ideology, much less a philosophy for living life.

You've told us what you are against.  What are you FOR?

good point. in canada, the straight edge thing doesn't seem to have this air of total irrationality attached to it. it's not about being against something or being better than everyone else, it's about self-preservation and rationality as i see it. i have upheld logical principles all my life and it coincided with the name "straight edge" as i found it... but as i have seen from your responses, i must be a rare sort to think this way. i do listen to some of the music that is associated... but i also listen to jazz and classical and a thousand other varieties.

this ideology [as i and many others see it and practice it] has nothing to do with inking/carving up your skin, or gratuitous violence, or any kind of anger and hatred towards the world. many straight edge kids fight amongst themselves about what is straight edge and what isn't, and the general consensus returns to the fact that it's your personal decision of what you consider edge.

i know that many people don't know what they're doing and are following a crowd in order to find meaning. i don't think that by being straight edge i should be associated with anything other than those basic sensical principles. also, it's easier shorthand at a party. if people ask why i'm straight edge, i tell them what i posted in my first post. i find it strange that as soon as i attached the words "straight edge" to what i'd posted, people didn't seem to like what i'd written. to respond to elle - i was more referring to the general principles, not the sad scene that has grown up around the lifestyle. i stay straight edge because i'm rational, not because i'm repressed or i need friends.

i can understand that some of you see objectivism in such a way that drinking is still a part of leisure. i'm supposing that the rest of you never associated abstinence with objectivism?

//

in response to another query, i am vegan, but more for health reasons [i'm allergic to eggs and milk] than political ones. however, if you knew where your food was coming from, you might be a little more hesitant to gobble up those cheeseburgers.

[RationalBiker]

however, if you knew where your food was coming from, you might be a little more hesitant to gobble up those cheeseburgers.

I'm glad you don't associate with all of that other dangerous behavior.

However, I think you should consider how presumptious your above statement is. You are assuming that since some of us may still eat meat, that we don't know where it's "coming from". That is not a logical conclusion.

VES

[nimble]

straight edge people dont eat caffeine. I dont think i could live without chocolate.

[Fred Weiss]

I ....make some of the best wine and beer known to mankind. It tastes so fine....

You'll have to invite me over some time.

Referring to my main vice, moderate consumption is the key. Pleasurable experiences are the value. Remember, enjoyment is not a vice.

Amen.

Objectivists, of all people, shouldn't fall into the near Puritanical, fanatical over-focus on health, which borders on hysteria, and which has swept this country in recent decades. But unfortunately I observe many of them who do. If you've been diagnosed with a particular health problem, or if your family history is a marker for your likely developing a particular problem, than you should have due regard for it and act accordingly. But, look, if you insist on following every passing health fad, it likely will do you little good anyway. Your genetics are probably going to be the decisive factor regardless of what you do. Furthermore, if the studies are to be believed, the secret to longevity is to survive on a near starvation diet. You're welcome to such a life if that's what you want.

Fred Weiss

[Ed from OC]

Objectivists, of all people, shouldn't fall into the near Puritanical, fanatical over-focus on health, which borders on hysteria, and which has swept this country in recent decades. But unfortunately I observe many of them who do.

I've noticed this phenomenon and went through something like it. I don't fully understand it, but here's my stab at an explanation:

Ayn Rand offers very intense moral praise or condemnation across a range of behaviors and contexts. For someone new to the philosophy, it is easy to catch the passion while missing the details of the explanation.

Now an earnest, ambitious student is hard on himself - always demanding "the best" and wanting no moral flaws or irrationality in any aspect of his life. Instead of pursuing values, he focuses on avoiding negatives. The negatives can be anything - including not exercising the "right" way, or not eating the "right" foods. Please note my point is not that proper diets don't exist, but that they are adopted with a near-religious mania, where one feels tremendous guilt for the smallest of slips.

The problem in thinking method - context dropping and rationalism - leads to guilt and repression. This type of Objectivist can quote chapter and verse on any topic Ayn Rand covered, but has a real problem pursuing personal passions.

There is a night and day difference between this type of Objectivist and one who pursues his own values. Another distinction: the former sees adherence to Objectivism in some way as an end in itself, perhaps out of pseudo-self-esteem or a sense of moral superiority, while the latter sees Objectivism as a tool to use to pursue one's goals and enhance one's life.

Another related issue is the sense of life. Many of Ayn Rand's essays point out the depravity of the modern era, and after immersing oneself in these writings, the world as a whole can look like a threat with Objectivism as an oasis. Yes, the world has flaws, but not metaphysically. One can pursue one's values and achieve them. Most Objectivists accept this intellectually, but I think many don't accept it emotionally. They seem unwilling to attempt to pursue deep, meaningful goals. Maybe they have challenging jobs and read interesting books, but they have no passion for career or hobbies.

The end result is that a philosophy whose goal is happiness has been turned into a means of eliminating the cause of happiness from one's life. And more than anything, that's a shame.

BTW, I don't mean to condemn Ayn Rand or this type of Objectivist for this. It is an error, and hopefully a temporary state.

[Fred Weiss]

The end result is that a philosophy whose goal is happiness has been turned into a means of eliminating the cause of happiness from one's life.  And more than anything, that's a shame.

I think you are on to something.

I'll provide a personal anecdote - which should be taken for nothing more than that - but nonetheless which does color my approach to this issue.

My father died rather young (early 60's) from a heart attack. So my brother, wanting to avoid that fate and assuming he would be prone to the same outcome, decided he would do all the things my father didn't, but which modern health consciousness prescribes. So he gave up smoking, followed a very restrictive low fat diet, watched his weight, and exercised regularly and vigorously.

He died of a heart attack at 58.

Go figure.

Fred Weiss

[Jerry Story]

I'll provide a personal anecdote - which should be taken for nothing more than that - but nonetheless which does color my approach to this issue.

My father died rather young (early 60's) from a heart attack. So my brother, wanting to avoid that fate and assuming he would be prone to the same outcome, decided he would do all the things my father didn't, but which modern health consciousness prescribes. So he gave up smoking, followed a very restrictive low fat diet, watched his weight, and exercised regularly and vigorously.

He died of a heart attack at 58.

Go figure.

Fred Weiss

There are good fats and bad fats. We need good fats. A low-fat diet can cause health problems. I've seen horror stories about people who lived on a low-fat diet. If the damage is not too far, their health problems tend to recover when they increase the good fats.

Low-fat diet is a mistake made by many heath-minded people.

There is plenty of evidence that correct life style can reduce heart disease, etc.

[AshRyan]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life.  for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it].  i have kept this lifestyle because i believe in its inherent rationality - that i don't want to put something into my system that would impair my ability to make rational judgements in any way.  also, i don't want to cause harm to the only thing that can get me anywhere in life - my physical self.

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

In my experience, straight-edgers tend to be almost a gang, usually violent. Most of them are nihilist punks, not the best friends to hang out with. But then again, maybe things have changed somewhat in the years since I was in high school.

But the more fundamental issue is that it is not a "philosophy," as you describe it--it's a list of "thou-shalt-nots." What you should focus on is a philosophy of rational self-interest, i.e., of the pursuit of your own happiness and all of the positive values that requires. All of that stuff about not doing things that are harmful to your self-interest will follow naturally and as an afterthought. In the meantime you will be occupied seeking out the good things in life, rather than just avoiding the bad.

Good luck!

[Silent Bob]

i am straight-edge and have been for my entire life.  for those of you that don't know it, it's a philosophy of abstaining from drinking, smoking, drugs and promiscuous sex [and some groups add on other peripheral things, but that's the guts of it].  i have kept this lifestyle because i believe in its inherent rationality - that i don't want to put something into my system that would impair my ability to make rational judgements in any way.  also, i don't want to cause harm to the only thing that can get me anywhere in life - my physical self.

i was curious as to whether other individuals here also abstain from the above activities, and if not, why not?

I have a great respect for people who choose to abstain from these thing though I myself do not. I find drinking (not getting drunk, but having a drink or two) to be very stimulating to my mind. Not for clarity, but for relaxation primairly. Smoking is a habit that I have had for going on 4 years now, and I am trying to quit mostly because it is a very expenisve habit. I enjoy it, but knowing that I am killing myself has not become comforting any longer. as far as drugs, I smoked pot for a while but I found that it was damaging to me because I wouldn't do anything and would just lay around the house until I had to go to work or school.

So, I wouldn't aggree with your look on drinking, but other than that I think it is great you have chosen to not pollute your body.

[chuckles]

Up until now, I didnt know that practice even had a name to go with it. My straight-edgedness basically stems from wanting a strong moral attitude towards life. Drinking has its consequences and I always seem to have disdain for people to drink to get drunk and afterwards boast about getting drunk, thats the brink of ridiculuity. Promicuity is the order of the day in most parts of the world today, and I beg to differ, I still belong to the old school ... that 'until married' type. With all these diseases, better safe than sorry. Drugs? Please. Its the caffeine part that cramps my style. I basically need to stay awake most times to get school work, etc taken care of.

[Spearmint]

I understand why some people would want to completely abstain from alcohol and recreational drugs. I also understand why these people might want to meet up with others who also abstain - if all your friends regularly take alcohol and other rec drugs, nights out with them might not be that great - I doubt it's much fun being the only sober person at a party,

However, sXe seems to go well beyond this. I will admit that I have never met anyone straight edge before, but I've seen various message boards inhabited by sXe'ers on the internet, and a lot of them seem to be batshit insane. It's one of the worst kinds of collectivism - they seem to be attempting to completely define themselves in terms of what they choose not to do., and the amount of self-righteous moralising they excrete is breathtaking. Perhaps youre not like this, and perhaps the majority of sXe'ers aren't like this, but in my experience a fair few do seem to be.

If you dont want to drink, dont drink. If you dont want to take rec drugs or have one night stands, then dont do it. However basing your entire personality around being "someone who doesnt drink or take drugs" is ludicrous. I don't really understand why you need the sXe label either - whats wrong with just saying "I dont drink"?

[DPW]

If you dont want to drink, dont drink. If you dont want to take rec drugs or have one night stands, then dont do it. However basing your entire personality around being "someone who doesnt drink or take drugs" is ludicrous. I don't really understand why you need the sXe label either - whats wrong with just saying "I dont drink"?

Well, consider: people need an integrated view of existence, they need a philosophy. Straight Edge provides some people with what on the surface seems like a positive philosophy.

Of course, you are right - in the final picture it is not a positive philosophy because it substitutes avoiding disvalues for creating values. It's the difference between a motivation based on the avoidance of death and one based on pursuing one's life.

Even worse, what they seek to avoid are not strictly disvalues. The Straight Edge identity is built on self-denail - the rejection of legitimate values. This is true of drinking, but particularly true for those who eschew sex. Under normal circumstances I would go so far as to say it is immoral to wait until one is married to have sex. Certainly it isn't psychologically healthy.