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human_murda last won the day on July 4 2018

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  1. So, the focus should instead be on blaming India even though literally every western country (and non-western country) emits more CO2 (per capita) than India? Of course, most of the increases are coming from India, but India is basically starting from zero. Most of the reductions are coming from Western countries, but they're starting from very high numbers (way higher than India). The only way India's emissions wouldn't increase is if it was left at zero (comparing increases in India to reductions in Western countries and assigning blame accordingly is non-sense, because we're starting from different base levels). Even after the "reductions", emissions by Western countries are orders of magnitudes higher than India (but apparently, "depriving only Western economies of the fuel they need" is the real injustice). India's emissions should be way higher, if "equality of blame" is the goal.
  2. And China is nothing like the other four.
  3. Your IQ is off the charts mahn. You understood everything I said (and didn't say).
  4. It's like having the right to life but not having that right written down in a legal document. Non-citizens would face the same problem that undocumented immigrants face: the constant fear that a new government could deport them, since it's not written down anywhere that they don't belong to a foreign country. You could say that under new laws, everyone inside the country's territory would have rights even without citizenship, but citizenship is the only way to guarantee, with a legal document, that no future government can deport immigrants. Without the promise of rights protection being written down as a legal document (via citizenship), it's not really a law, just a promise. Just like rights like "right to life", "right to property", etc need to be written down on paper, the "right to non-deportation" (aka citizenship) also needs to be written down on paper. Since US law doesn't apply to everyone in the Universe, it needs to be written down to whom the law applies to (via citizenship), not just the geographical jurisdiction (which is indirect and incomplete [earlier example]). Without legal documents, immigrants would be no different from slave workers in UAE, who don't even have a right to get a passport to escape (because they're not citizens). If you're not a citizen, technically, you're not a legal entity. Just like the US doesn't have to grant rights to animals (even when they are within US territory), they don't have to grant rights to you (if they don't recognize you as a legal entity to whom rights apply). Even historically, people from certain races as well as women were excluded from citizenship. Immigrants would have the same fate.
  5. That translates to this: not what Yaron Brook said (and no, it's not a matter of definition. You can't define citizenship away and expect it to have no consequences).
  6. If not for rights protection, why would all these immigrants be given legal status? What makes it necessary to give every immigrant legal status? What is every immigrant entitled to, apart from rights protection (that makes it necessary to give all of them some so-called legal status in your society)? If there is nothing more (than rights protection) all immigrants are entitled to, they're not getting any legal status (in your society).
  7. Essentially implying that there would be some immigrants stuck with the bare minimum: no legal status.
  8. Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that immigrants shouldn't get citizenship and don't even need legal status.
  9. I'm disagreeing with the idea that you should take away people's citizenship. The point was that geographical jurisdiction wasn't the quality that determines which government enforces your rights, as you said earlier. I don't know what kind of hypothetical world you're inhabiting where (a fraction of people) not having citizenship or visas or legal status of any kind (while others do) doesn't make them illegal aliens.
  10. If you prevent them from landing for no legitimate reason (involving any actual, past violation of rights), then yes. If you just ask them questions and let them land anyway, no. People can travel without violating the life and property of people within a border. That's not physically impossible (unless they're on a 737 max). If they do violate it, they can be deported, but not beforehand. I would say that the government controls, not the entry, but the flow of people through the border. They can check the immigrants for any past crimes committed or if they have enough funds for rent, etc but if they satisfy the criteria, the government cannot stop them. That privilege is not theirs to grant. The government cannot control your destination, even if they control how you reach there.
  11. Maybe if you stick to actual meanings of words, your arguments wouldn't be worse than trash. Clearly, everyone has been wrong all along. Taking away citizenship, making every immigrant an illegal immigrant is the solution everyone has been yearning for. Everyone should be an illegal immigrant because anything else is "dumb as shit" and all its corollaries.
  12. They have the same rights as anyone else. Their rights are just going to be enforced by a different government. However, once they enter the country, the foreign government doesn't have any jurisdiction, so it's better to transfer citizenship (or give them visa, depending on intentions). Citizenship is part of the machinery that determines who enforces the protection of your rights. People still have rights, even if they're not citizens. Not being a citizen only means that your rights cannot be enforced (by the government you're not a citizen of). If you're not a citizen, you still have the right to enter a country, although that right is to be enforced by a foreign government (which is an awkward arrangement). The correct way would be to transfer citizenship, so that enforcement of rights can still be followed (deportation would be contrary to the enforcement of rights, for which the concept of citizenship was designed anyway).
  13. And what about citizens? What if an American student studying in China or, say, Saudi Arabia gets detained by the Chinese government or Saudi government? Should the American government care? Why should they care? I'm not questioning whether non-citizens have rights. I'm questioning whether the rights of non-citizens can be legally enforced by a particular government (since if you're not a citizen of a country, the legal enforcement of your rights don't come under that government, even if you're physically present in that country). If you don't have legal status (citizenship/visa), the government has no obligation to protect your rights, even if you're in that country (as is the case with many "illegals" in USA currently). Citizenship is your legal status, that entitles you to protection from a particular government. The fact that a particular government has jurisdiction over a geographic area is not sufficient.
  14. Can you define what a citizen is? What makes a citizen different from a non-citizen? Citizenship is the permission. How are you "permitted" to have free speech if you're not a citizen? Who permits you and for what reason? What quality determines which government enforces your rights? Does the American government protect my free speech in India? Why not? Between who?
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