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Iatan Petru

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Everything posted by Iatan Petru

  1. Hello. Before proceeding to the matter itself, I would like to specify that I am new to Objectivism and that the ideas and arguments I am about to bring forward come from the research I've done thus far and from how I've personally come to look at the issue of Government intervention regarding animal abuse from an Objectivist standpoint. Also I've just made an account on this website and I have no previous experience with it, so I apologise if this topic should've fallen under a different category other than the one I have selected. Alright, I shall get right into it. I would say that authorities should take action against people who display cruelty towards animals. By cruelty I mean unjistified torture, abuse, and arguably neglect. On short, generating pain just for the sake of it. Here's how I've come to believe this : It's already been concluded that animals have no rights, that one's pet is one's property and that animal abuse, while not directly violating anyone's rights, is immoral (since empathy towards sentient creatures is natural for psyhically healthy human beings, cruelty is irrational and disgust towards cruelty is rightly justified). I won't go into detail regarding these aspects, there are already materials out there addressing them. Undeniably, there's a strong gut feeling that makes us want to be able to punish animal abusers, but how can we justify it? In order to understand why animal cruelty could be objectively considered punishable, I went ahead and looked for the Objectivist stance on punishment. To make it quick about it, when someone violates your rights he becomes indebted towards you, if he refuses to pay that debt Government's intervention and often use of physical force are objectively justified and the purpose of the punishment that person is given is to clear that debt. Sounds fair. But then, what about murder? If I murder you, even though I violated your right, I cannot be considered indebted towards you, since you no longer exist (you're dead). So, while serving my legal punishment for murder, to whom am I paying the debt? Objectivism also addresses this issue, from what I've read, and the quick is answer is "to your fellow citizens". When you live in a society, you are on a sort of a social contract with everyone else, which, among other things, states that you shouldn't murder or commit any sin against someone that may prevent him from taking legal action against you, since if we were to be consistent with this idea, then that would mean you could commit the same sin towards anybody and that no one should be legally able to stop you. On short, people are objectively entitled to believe you are a physical threat to them,because you don't just resort to peacefully living by means of production and trade and therefore you are to be isolated from the rest of the society if you're a psychopath or suffer from a mental derangement, or to be legally sanctioned if you are irrationally evil. That brings us finally to the issue of animal abuse. If someone unjustifiably kills or tortures sentient animals (dogs, cats, hens etc.), it could objectively be considered a sign of either mental derangement or evilness. In the first case, that person belongs in a mental institution, since if rights come from the existence of reason and that person's reason is altered, then he doesn't have certain rights that a sane person would have. He is a real threat to the other human beings. What if the animal torturer is just irrationaly sadistic though? Can we objectively declare that by generating unjustified suffering in an animal without rights he becomes indebted to humans? I say yes, and here's why : When you torture (for example) a dog, provided you're doing it out of sadism and not a mental illness, you don't : Act like a human towards an animal, Act like an animal towards an animal, or Act like a human towards a human. You act like a being that can generate pain and wants to generate pain towards a being that cannot generate pain (if you torture the dog, it is defenseless) and can feel pain. That is objectively how sadism works. Therefore, since sentient beings can feel pain, by generating pain out of sadism you become indebted to the sentient beings that have rights : humans. People can objectively conclude that if you are capable of torturing a dog just because you like it, that you could the same to a human. In conclusion, Government can initiate physical force and punish animal torturers, but not to make justice to the tortured animal (that would be absurd, since animals don't have rights), but to the people, who share with that animal the ability to feel pain. Sorry for any philosophical flaws this article might display, because again, I am fairly new to the philosophy of Objectivism.
  2. And like I said, if a man is druk or under drug influence in public spaces, even though it doesn't automatically mean they are a threat to others, it highly suggests so. You can't wait for a crime to take place, you can also prevent it when it's justified to believe it will happen. Leonard Peikoff suggested we should be free to live without potentially harmful people among us, an admin here said the same thing (posted the link in an earler comment), I don't see how it contradicts Objectivist principles. Humans have a right to not live in fear, when that fear is objectively justified. Maybe potential threats shouldn't be locked up, I merely suggested separating dangerous individuals from the rest of the people. If necessary, by use of force. It's not their fault they are deranged but we shouldn't have to pay the price of living around them. A good suggestion I've read somewhere would be to ask (not force, ask) animal traders to make a contract with those who buy them, making it an obligation that the owners should give their pets decent lives. I think that would also solve a big part of this issue.
  3. Let's take another very famous example : The Dnepopetrovsk Maniacs. They tortured and killed countless dogs before moving on to human torture and murder. If you are familiar with the "Three guys one hammer" viral human torture video you'll know what I am talking about. Do some research on those guys and you'll find pictures of them standing near mutilated dog corpses, just days before moving on to a human target. And it is the perfect example of how psychopaths move on from animals to people. I have to say I am not talking about children here. Kids do stupid stuff, they torture weaker animals as a subconscious desire to show their dominance so it doesn't really mean they'll be a danger when they grow up. I talk about adult psychos. Just because not all drunks or junkies killed people that doesn't mean sane civilians shouldn't be protected against them (that was already debated on this site and people agreed potential threats can be removed from the other individuals). So why not take away unstable people who can be proven by psychology to be a potential threat to others? 71% of men who kill or beat animals have also beaten their wives, not sure whether in the U.S. or in the whole world. The source is here : http://www.mediapeta.com/peta/PDF/AnimalAbuseHumanAbuse.pdf While reading it, please only focus on the statement regarding the study that's been done, as well as on the examples of real cases. Those are the parts of the article that cannot be denied and I understand why you require that I should bring proof before starting to label people, so there it is.
  4. Proud Father, that is why I said that Psychology should have a say in this. "If someone is dangerously psychotic where they're having hallucinations and can act dangerously toward others, the law allows them to be held -- and, if the kinks could be removed from the system, it is fine in principle to do so. " Like I said in the original post, that is one case and I didn't question it that it's imperative we should take action against them. I was trying to say that we should also be able to make a case against people who aren't uncontrollable, but purely evil. To make it simple, sane psychopaths. If you can use Psychology to prove that : a. They are sadists and want to make sentient beings suffer for fun, and b. They are clearly acting on their sadism, seeing how they've already tortured animals ...then you can isolate them from the other people. " Imagine you have a neighbor who starves his pet, or kicks it, or abandons it is some area it will probably die... etc. do you actually live in fear this person will assault you?" I should make it clear that I don't think people should be punished just for this. Yes it is immoral due to a lack of empathy, but it shouldn't be illegal. I was talking about the cases where the man purposely inflicts pain and does horrible things to the animal (not just neglect) for his own amusement. Again, if a psychiatrist can conclude they're a danger, it's only good that we should lock them up. I don't really think we should punish someone just because he had a rough day at work and kicked a stray dog for barking at him, out of rage. Or that someone neglects his pet and lets it starve so that he could spend his money on other things he wants. I am talking about psychopathic sadists.
  5. I can see that in two instances here the reason that contributes to your disagreement with my idea is the semantics. By 'debt' I mean what Ayn Rand meant in her approach to punishment. Again, the matter has already been adressed and there are enough materials on the internet regarding the Objectivist stance on punishment. If I violate your rights then I create a 'debt' towards you without your consent. It is therefore objectively justified by the Government to collect that debt from me without my consent. In the case of murder (the victim no longer exists so there's no debt to pay to him), the murderer shall be punishmed because he should be forced to face the negative consequences of his actions. I know this is a crudely simplified way of explaining, but again, this matter is set in stone and there's no need to further debate it. Second, I know that society is not a being with rights, when I mean society I mean "all of the individuals who live under the same Government". I found the following discussion on this forum : There, an Admin says the following : "An indication of a general direction would be: it is in the self interest of rational individuals to remove from their midst those discovered to be irrational in order to maintain a rational culture, where irrationality is evaluated along the axis of respecting individual rights. " If torture of an animal is without any other purpose than the infliction of pain, since human beings are also able to feel that kind of pain, it is common sense to believe the torturer is a danger to all sentient beings, including humans. Since arbitrarily deciding what is common sense and what isn't can easily lead to invalid conclusions, it is imperative to bring Psychology into the equation. And I think it's safe to say that Psychology would conclude that psychopaths are a danger to humans as well as animals, so legal action against them is justified and highly recommended.