Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

StrictlyLogical

Regulars
  • Posts

    2748
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    187

StrictlyLogical last won the day on May 24 2023

StrictlyLogical had the most liked content!

2 Followers

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Not Telling

Previous Fields

  • Sexual orientation
    No Answer
  • Relationship status
    No Answer
  • State (US/Canadian)
    Not Specified
  • Country
    Not Specified
  • Copyright
    Copyrighted

Recent Profile Visitors

16404 profile views

StrictlyLogical's Achievements

Senior Member

Senior Member (6/7)

534

Reputation

  1. Excellent responses by all, not much to add. My one observation is that the main problem is not so much a conflation of identity and value... sure, these concepts are not to be conflated, but if such an error were made, it should be easily remedied by one familiar enough with each concept, and secondly, such a conflation, even if believed, cannot form the foundation for the "primacy of consciousness view". Even if value can be created in things by sheer subjectivity, the things themselves to which this magical value attaches cannot be created ex nihilo. Neither do we observe the magical consciousnesses (ghosts?) at work absent the physical brains/bodies by which they are manifested. With the conflation they can perhaps get to things "enchanted" or "haunted" by consciousness... but they cannot get to primacy of consciousness. I think you will find that rather than some small conflation enabling or leading to such a conclusion (which is far out of reach), in fact the "conclusion" is an existing presumption, an entrenched pre-existing premise which motivates the person to try to find evidence or reasons (perhaps even the conflation ... not knowing that it is erroneous) which can be used to support that presumption. Here they are starting at the end (primacy of consciousness) which is not rationally justified by the means to arrive there (no pun intended).
  2. In addition to what I said above here is something to think about: Old school mailboxes at the end of the driveway are a nice example of the interplay between things, causation, information, and knowledge. If you have outgoing mail, you ensure the flag is up, the outgoing mail is in there and the mail carrier is supposed to put it down and take your outgoing mail. If you see the flag down, it should be an indication the carrier took your outgoing mail and dropped off any incoming mail. BUT that assumes the carrier knows the convention, she could have opened and closed the box without taking your mail (thinking it incoming mail from yesterday). She could have lowered your flag out of spite, and not done anything with your mail. You can't even be sure if she came, the flag could have failed... a mechanism finally rusting through, a branch from a tree may have fallen on it, or a squirrel or a racoon could have fiddled with your box... or a mischievous neighbor or child in your neighbor hood is playing prank on you... or in some cases (depending on the mechanics) some snooping person may have merely opened the mailbox and closed it again. If you see the flag still up, it should be an indication the carrier did not take your outgoing mail nor dropped off any incoming mail. BUT again that assumes the carrier knows the convention, she could have opened and closed the box took your outgoing mail and dropped off your incoming mail and put the flag up again. If the flag is "still" up you can't even be sure nothing happened with the flag since you last put it up, although that is your assumption. So, if you see the flag up, you literally have no certain information, although statistically you can draw inferences... and If you see the flag down you are certain only about causality, something or someone (including failure) caused the flag to move, although statistically you can draw inferences. In the end, you behave as though the carrier does what was supposed to be done and generally nothing else interacts with the flag, and statistically speaking you end up use that information as efficiently as possible, even if thing sometimes surprise you.
  3. Pretty much. In the real world you can gain that knowledge from things by observing the thing directly (in any way through a causal chain without intervening third parties). You can also gain knowledge from information which has been generated by third parties observing the thing and essentially telling you about it. This information is recorded in any symbolic form of communication or record keeping and it represents the referent to which it is directed. We also use the term information to identify the representations conveyed by nonliving causal intermediaries between the thing and our minds... e.g. eyes, provide the information we know... video recording provide information about what the camera was aimed at...the photons travelling from galaxies give us information about the galaxies. Both knowledge and information are about or refer to things, they have referents in reality. Knowledge is in your head, information is encoded in some, any medium, or causal intermediary. You can get knowledge about referents directly or from information. Both knowledge and information is valid when there is both a causal connection to the referent and when they identify the referent or whatever is relevant about it,without contradiction with that reality.
  4. Our brains use physical means in order abstract and to form abstractions. Do you contend our physical brains CONSIST of abstractions? If you contend information exists as a physical part of any physical system, does it exist independently of, over and above , or in addition to, all the other physical characteristics we can observe but traditionally have not identified as "information" as such? What happens to physical system we observe when the information is removed from the physical system? What is the distinction between a first universe where we merely identify and perceive information about a physical thing, the information existing only in our minds as and because we create it by thinking of and referring to those things, and a second universe where the information is in the things themselves? Specifically, what is different about those things themselves which we observe in those two universes?
  5. I think he is saying that we quantify how "purely physical" things act or are arranged in ways more sophisticated and with what we associate with "information".. as such we use concepts like bits, bandwidth, coding and compression theory to characterize what we observe in the physical world, the same way we have used number and classical mathematics to quantify more intuitively observables of the physical world. Just like numbers, as such, do not exist independent of the things we count with them, so too these concepts only identify characteristics of physical things, but are not themselves physical. But insofar as things for centuries "possessed" quantifiable attributes, properties, etc. which we describe with numbers, so too in 2023 purely physical things of sufficient complexity "possess" functional capacities and arrangements which we can quantify in terms of "information" and specifically in terms of "bits, bandwidth, coding and compression". It is another matter entirely, whether consciousness itself can be equated with "computation" or an information processing "algorithm". Although not an objectivist, I like the recent musings of Roger Penrose on the issue.
  6. I am no philosopher. I would characterize Rand as finally being wholly unbiased in operational orientation towards deduction or inference, and that certainly post maturation, her structures were girded by both, as the state of all prior knowledge and observation required for the particular bit of construction on the edifice of her philosophy. It may be that she leaned towards a deductive foundational approach in the early years, but I do not believe she leaned in any particular direction in the mature philosophy... A dichotomy is presented here which may not be necessary. what has not been provided is a third option... one which leans in neither direction.
  7. OK... so... DID you imagine a drawing of a house, such as what a child might draw? If not.. you are mystery to me, but at least my understanding of your words (which I can't quite fully believe) would be validated. If you had to draw it before "seeing" it, you win. If you did visualize a house... I'd say you and your wife are not so different.
  8. Just a second… how would you visualize a spatial problem? For example imagine placing furniture so that it fits a room but also imagining it in place to determine if there is flow and if it will work functionally long term? Do you not visualize it i.e. see it in your mind’s eye? If someone described “An isosceles triangle pointing straight up, its horizontal base longer than and resting on a square, a smaller vertically oriented rectangle resting in the square at its base, a small circle inside and to one side of the rectangle” do you see anything in your mind’s eye or would you literally have to draw it first following this description as if they were a set of instructions?
  9. This reminds me of much, and brings up a thought or perhaps a sentiment... a certain asymmetry... Although "We cannot know things-in-themselves" is flawed it is a certainty that "things-in-themselves cannot know We... only We do." is true.
  10. How could it come to this? Korean Air Flight 801 "Save face" of (and for) your superiors... don't speak up. Publish anyway... crash and burn.
  11. US Corruption is not partisan... nor should be its opposition.
  12. Why does Tyson call the axioms "presuppositional"? Isn't what is actually presupposed the "possibility of knowledge" as such, and based on that presupposition, the axioms follow ... almost.. dare I say, deductively?
×
×
  • Create New...