whYNOT

Already established, the intent of the exercise: to discredit and undermine Israel and the Israelis in particular and Jews everywhere. When this is known the rest is easier to understand. An intent proven by the basic fact, a premeditated violent attack on Israel - which would goad a violent response - which would have children killed for certain. The rest will follow, outraged mass condemnation of the responders, not of the perpetrators. Blame will be diverted from the deliberate death-dealers. "Genocide" accusations will emanate from the intended and proven genociders themselves and from their support base. A false alternative, it is no self-contraction to be deeply disturbed by both sets of violence. The normally rational person one can engage with, will say how terrible is the response - and - how egregious were the initial assaults. Then, he/she shows awareness of the grim, but just, cause of the former by the second. The ones to avoid with suspicion are those who, with appeals to emotion, exclusively justify the perpetrators. Fundamentalist Muslim "taqyyia" - the duty of "deception" towards "infidels" and enemies - is never out of play. Much of this conflict and its perceptions are psychological. So some/many reports and casualty numbers inside the conflict zone will be exaggerated or entirely fabricated. One (e.g.) can be sure that some of the claims of journalists shot by IDF were Hamas operatives posing as reporters. I've known a few like that in active situations. When the terrorist enemy is (by definition) dressed in civilian clothes, and not ostensibly carrying or firing a weapon, he can blend into the crowds. Also to be absorbed critically are the IDF reports, though I have found them quite candid and reliable, even to their own discomfort. Unofficially they've estimated the ratio of civilians killed to Hamas operatives killed - 2 : I. Therefore "18,000" - if accurate - can be reduced to 12,000 civilians. Not pleasant, though a remarkably low ratio in this type of street/tunnel guerilla war and hardly pre-deliberated genocide.

Claims and propositions require piecing together facts. If you'd made one, brought up for proof, I would recall it. For picking over details, you're the man!

And how's that working out for ya? Those "solid facts" - detached from reality? Can you see what's happened to Ukraine, resulting from the arrogant Western refusals to talk turkey with Putin who was (FACT) ready and willing to do so, at the - much lesser - cost of some concessions? The war which NATO/the West provoked and/or anticipated that never had to occur. The biggest lie of all: that Satan, "Putin" was on his way into Europe, next. So cling to your 'facts' in the face of this (most predictable) outcome.

One Gazan resident at least, knows with whom the moral condemnation lies. With them who started it, Hamas terrorists. Who cowardly still hold the hostages for their protection/leverage. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/article-777031

I worry also for America's future. 18-24, the up and coming age group, has partially bought into cultural Marxism, the horrors of "neo-colonialism", Islamicism and the rest. "Israel to be ended". Sacrificed as a sop to their delicate feelings. https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-778327

At root, easily explained. By and large, the fundamentalist Muslims are and were racist against Jews. Their religious texts and newfound Islamic nationalism, the basic sources. From pre-1948 until '48 when five surrounding Arab nations attacked the new state, the predominant sentiment was - We will never share this territory with Jews. Into the next aggressive war and the next... and to the present. It was those wars that caused a mass displacement of the people, naturally, - and created the "Palestinian problem". The problem then, a direct responsibility of Arab nations which initiated force on Jews. Earlier on, the Jewish contingent were evidently amenable to partition, nor had strong feelings against Arabs. Fast forward, and with the unremitting attacks on and hatred shown to the Israelis for decades, it is unsurprising that many in turn, from fears for their existence, have reciprocated racial prejudice against Palestinians, they are human too.

It's complete ignorance or evasion of the full destructive capacity of the modern (conventional) weapons and methods of warfare, by which the 'genocide of Palestinian' alarmists observe the battlegrounds. They show ignorance of the huge distinction between "collateral damage" and deliberate civilian attacks. Civilians en masse being the easiest of targets to locate and hit. IF it is/was "genocide" being intended, the Israelis are terrible at it. You have to do better, IDF !! Too few civilians killed ! There are millions living yet. Those many pretend ~humanitarians- (who are anti-human-value) demand it. Because, AS IT IS APPARENT, many screeching against Gazan 'genocide' desire nothing less than Jewish/Israeli genocide. "See, we pick and choose whom we'd like annihilated"... These are cowardly accomplices to mass-murderers.

I meant to write - Iraqi "genocide"? One has about 3 mins for edits

Yes. The 'right' of (national) self-defense entails a Gvt. which must and will protect its citizens to any extent they see fit to end the danger, no arbitrary options about it. It is after all, "delegated" to do so - by every citizen's individual right of self defense. "A nation doesn't have rights"- (if I quoted Rand correctly) I often suspect that the foreign politicians, etc., who concur "Israel has the right to defend itself" are vague about how a nation came by that "right" and might not know defense-retaliation is unquestionable and obligatory by Gvts. And pols may rescind that country's 'right' whenever it suits them personally or politically.

Iraqi genocide. Not in the least a self-defensive war. But Israel, defending its own people after a barbaric invasion and promises of repeats by Hamas - must be judged by a different set of standards, say the subjective evaders. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiYhsHIhJaDAxW3SkEAHV7qAmIQFnoECCYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fmeet-the-press%2Fmeetthepressblog%2Firaq-war-numbers-rcna75762&usg=AOvVaw2w3ZqkPfcbZ9ji8gZdmnXz&opi=89978449

I agree completely that the USA must be extremely careful about supporting/entering/creating a future war. It's not overlooked by its foes that America has been overextending itself with Ukraine. To open up new fronts would be folly. I argued forcefully against the US neo-cons and neo-libs dangerous obsession to take down Russia via NATO, via Ukraine. That's not over yet. A new wave of Western mobilizations about to ratchet tensions up. So the same people are - for now - in support of Israel and 'on my side', I remain consistent. I do not trust neocons' enthusiasm for wars. "Self-defense" and preemptive defense is the principle to go by, avoiding 'geopolitical' and other ambitions.

"Relations were... being normalized. Not with the kind of killing... in Gaza". But what do you think was ~one~ motive of the Hamas attack on Israel? This: To disrupt Israel's and Saudi Arabia's talks for an accord. Some value was growing out of the Abraham Accords. Who do you think feared that? Gaza attacks Israel; and not any doubt - Israel attacks Gaza; there is intensive conflict against underground terrorists - and so on. I don't know how anyone can miss it, this was not just some crazy, brutal attack without motive on Israel. E.g. Because the poor Gazans were "under siege" - bla bla, (from the Hamas apologists and propagandists) I have constantly stressed that Hamas KNEW what would happen-- many Gazans (terrrorists and civilians) would be killed by Israel...etc.etc., the fallout would be an outpouring of support for poor Gazans, Israel gets vilified as "the genocider" ... AND - talks would end, and relations be strained with Israel's moderate Accords partners. The threat to Iran's regional dominance is nullified. Come on. You people should be too intelligent and cognizant of the causal sequence to be fooled by these shrewd ploys. You underestimate the enemy's cleverness and falsity. How the US was taken in by Iran's glib assurances, last time round by Obama/Kerry. Jerusalem Post "Intelligence reports show that Hamas’s assault on Israel on October 7 was prepared over several years, with active support and guidance from Iran. The timing of the attack was motivated, to some extent, by the rapid advances in the US-led normalization process between Israel and Saudi Arabia in the weeks preceding the attack. Such a normalization could undermine the goals of both Hamas and the Iranian regime, who realized that a normalization pact would stymie their efforts to delegitimize and ultimately destroy Israel. For now, it seems their plot has partially succeeded; the normalization process came to a screeching halt and there are growing signs of tension and irritation among the Arab signatories of the Abraham Accords (the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco) that may lead to the collapse of these agreements or their deterioration to the “cold peace” that describes relations between Israel and two of its other peace partners – Egypt and Jordan".

Bananas. Good bye.

It's not just Gaza. That war will not need assistance. The Hezbollah Army, proxy of Iran in Lebanon, currently firing into Northern Israel, is huge, battle hardened and well-organized. It's uncertain if Israel could drive them back. Even so, the US should not intervene, while keeping a naval presence nearby is valuable as a warning to Iran, the common enemy of both Israel and US, to stay out. Tensions are dangerously high in the area. Only Iran's direct military interference, and the Mullahs claim they don't want that, should legitimately draw US strikes. I gave my opinion ~against~ pro-Israel, Jewish lobby groups in USA. Imo, the two nations should keep good relations and share assets but maintain some distance. Too close, I've noticed, is harmful to the interests of each.

Didn't you grasp the meaning of that quotation? I will simplify. Israel was always forced to fight defensive wars. Other nations and terrorist organizations. Israelis could mourn their own fallen soldiers - and - mourn too, that they were instrumental in killing the enemy's "sons", in order to survive. Meir indicated this guilt was worse for the Jews. If that's not unheard of, unique compassion for one's enemy's losses, what is? But you will impose your own dirty narrative onto it.

Hah. Got a Woke lunatic here, spreading bile when they haven't an argument. You want to hear who sustains proper life-values in the M.E. ? The Jews. An unpopular notion. Golda Meir or somebody, who said something like: We might forgive the Palestinians for killing our sons but can never forgive them for forcing us to kill theirs. I strongly endorse her view. That idea stands even in war today with most Jews who equally deplore the deaths of enemy civilians in a defensive war. But faced with "either you or us", it will have to be you. Try to imagine a Hamas leader saying the same. No. They want both "our sons" and - evidently - their own, dying for international propaganda in their cause of Islamicist domination.

Yet, you have lent your voice to blocking Israel's just and defensive war against Islamicist attempts to end its existence. Makes you a useful idiot for the Islamic terrorists.

A sudden turnaround. Belatedly you now claim "value" for all lives. All along, you've not mentioned "innocent" "Israeli lives". If you'd valued "all human life" you'd - foremost - have castigated the initiators of the force. The first cause of violence. A country has the "moral imperative" to protect its citizens from aggression. As the right each has for him/herself. And must end the aggression - permanently - for the long term. Not for this month or year. Inciting another country to attack yours, irrefutably displays -you, Hamas- have nil value in your citizens' lives. How much can one value those who don't value themselves or their people? So again, it's demanded of Israel that they self-sacrifice future and present lives in favor of those who cannot value their own. No, I don't believe you. Too little, too late.

As if you give a damn for the hostages. If true, this must give you pleasure.

Where did you see Israel demanding help from "the West"!? It is not Ukraine. It pays for or manufactures its armaments. I well and truly hope that no Western/US forces enter into the conflict. Israel must go this alone, as it always has - if needs be, taking on the Hezbollah aggression. All it needs is *moral* support, and that, those like yourself who want the country eradicated for Islamicism are clearly campaigning on social media and in the streets to stifle.

It would require one's intellectualism, not our feelings, to ascertain that the Islamist-neo-Marxist ideologies are what is opposed to "making all of us safer".

And so it goes on, SillyKitty making a moral equivalence (even - the moral supremacy of Hamas). Obviously she missed out on Rand's "hierarchy of values". Israel to Hamas, is comparing apples to ... cyanide pills. Ask the Arab Israelis living there who would not be anywhere else. The definition of "sacrifice"? Sacrificing a greater value to a lesser/non-value... Exactly what Israel must do to itself, to satisfy the false 'humanitarians'. Never expect kindness or humanity from altruists, they are directly opposed. Maybe SK didn't hear that Hamas's idea of "legal defense" trial and due process is tossing people (suspected informers, gays, Fatah members and others) off of buildings? UNWRA doesn't report those.

What was plotted by Hamas and the rest could soon be something to do with everyone. Why does anyone expect this to remain localized, not part of a grander scheme? It is plain, they've detected the West's intellectual frailty, and infighting, like the divisions over anti-Semitism, they have achieved rousing Western solidarity (campuses etc.) The best time to spread onwards to other regions. With global backing from their malleable followers. A caution, they have smart experts in the political section who understand their western foes, Hamas are not all dumb thugs. Europe next? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67715120

A brief history. [Gaza had been administered, after the Ottomans, by Egypt, who lost it, after attacking Israel in the '67 war. A small number - 10.000 - of Israeli settlers eventually 'occupied' the Strip, and movement across the border by Gazan workers and Israelis was quite unrestricted. The settlers and IDF were later completely evacuated. It did not placate Hamas]. Read at the end how the Israel Gvt. fell into complacency. This account by Reuters, generally partial to Palestine, might reveal Israel's peaceful initial intentions--until aggressions from Hamas/Palestinians . Land, sea and air embargoes attempting to limit weapons entering Gaza seemed to be the rational solution. Who - actually - was "the besieged"? Who consistently responded in self-defense? Continued... "With the Egyptians gone, many Gazan workers took jobs in the agriculture, construction and services industries inside Israel, to which they could gain easy access at that time. Israeli troops remained to administer the territory and to guard the settlements that Israel built in the following decades. These became a source of growing Palestinian resentment. 1987 - First Palestinian uprising. Hamas formed Twenty years after the 1967 war, Palestinians launched their first intifada, or uprising. It began in December 1987 after a traffic accident in which an Israeli truck crashed into a vehicle carrying Palestinian workers in Gaza's Jabalya refugee camp, killing four. Stone-throwing protests, strikes and shutdowns followed. Seizing the angry mood, the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood created an armed Palestinian branch, Hamas, with its power base in Gaza. Hamas, dedicated to Israel's destruction and restoration of Islamic rule in what it saw as occupied Palestine, became a rival to Yasser Arafat's secular Fatah party that led the Palestine Liberation Organization. 1993 - The Oslo Accords, and Palestinian semi-autonomy Israel and the Palestinians signed an historic peace accord in 1993 that led to the creation of the Palestinian Authority. Under the interim deal, Palestinians were first given limited control in Gaza, and Jericho in the West Bank. Arafat returned to Gaza after decades in exile. The Oslo process gave the newly created Palestinian Authority some autonomy, and envisaged statehood after five years. But that never happened. Israel accused the Palestinians of reneging on security agreements, and Palestinians were angered by continued Israeli settlement building. Hamas and Islamic Jihad carried out bombings to try to derail the peace process, leading Israel to impose more restrictions on movement of Palestinians out of Gaza. Hamas also picked up on growing Palestinian criticisms of corruption, nepotism and economic mismanagement by Arafat's inner circle. 2000 - Second Palestinian intifada In 2000, Israeli-Palestinian relations sank to a new low with the outbreak of the second Palestinian intifada. It ushered in a period of suicide bombings and shooting attacks by Palestinians, and Israeli air strikes, demolitions, no-go zones and curfews. One casualty was Gaza International Airport, a symbol of thwarted Palestinian hopes for economic independence and the Palestinians' only direct link to the outside world that was not controlled by Israel or Egypt. Opened in 1998, Israel deemed it a security threat and destroyed its radar antenna and runway a few months after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States. Another casualty was Gaza's fishing industry, a source of income for tens of thousands. Gaza's fishing zone was reduced by Israel, a restriction it said was necessary to stop boats smuggling weapons. 2005 - Israel evacuates its Gaza settlements In August 2005 Israel evacuated all its troops and settlers from Gaza, which was by then completely fenced off from the outside world by Israel. Palestinians tore down the abandoned buildings and infrastructure for scrap. The settlements' removal led to greater freedom of movement within Gaza, and a "tunnel economy" boomed as armed groups, smugglers and entrepreneurs quickly dug scores of tunnels into Egypt. But the pullout also removed settlement factories, greenhouses and workshops that had employed some Gazans. 2006 - Isolation under Hamas In 2006, Hamas scored a surprise victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections and then seized full control of Gaza, overthrowing forces loyal to Arafat's successor, President Mahmoud Abbas. Much of the international community cut aid to the Palestinians in Hamas-controlled areas because they regarded Hamas as a terrorist organization. Israel stopped tens of thousands of Palestinian workers from entering the country, cutting off an important source of income. Israeli air strikes crippled Gaza's only electrical power plant, causing widespread blackouts. Citing security concerns, Israel and Egypt also imposed tighter restrictions on the movement of people and goods through the Gaza crossings. Ambitious Hamas plans to refocus Gaza's economy east, away from Israel, foundered before they even started. Viewing Hamas as a threat, Egypt's military-backed leader Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, who took power in 2014, closed the border with Gaza and blew up most of the tunnels. Once again isolated, Gaza's economy went into reverse. Conflict cycle Gaza's economy has suffered repeatedly in the cycle of conflict, attack and retaliation between Israel and Palestinian militant groups. Before 2023, some of the worst fighting was in 2014, when Hamas and other groups launched rockets at heartland cities in Israel. Israel carried out air strikes and artillery bombardment that devastated neighborhoods in Gaza. More than 2,100 Palestinians were killed, mostly civilians. Israel put the number of its dead at 67 soldiers and six civilians. 2023 - Surprise attack While Israel was led to believe it was containing a war-weary Hamas by providing economic incentives to Gazan workers, the group's fighters were being trained and drilled in secret. On Oct.7, Hamas gunmen launched a surprise attack on Israel, rampaging through towns, killing hundreds, and taking dozens of hostages back to Gaza. Israel took revenge, hammering Gaza with air strikes and razing entire districts in some of the worst blood-letting in the 75 years of conflict".

What to watch out for is slipping into: 'This has nothing to do with us; it is Israel's problem; they brought it on themselves; the Palestinians are the innocents; condemn Israel for being overly 'self-defensive''; let Israel simply disappear, and all will be peaceful". The oiled Islamist propaganda machine was designed, to press all the right buttons with the 'right' masses of people, in tandem with and anticipation of the initiation of brutal force in October. Beyond arguing over the rights of national self-defense and un/justifiable force, objective intellectuals could be reminded: what we see is a combined Islamist/neo-Marxist global ideology. Force doesn't stamp it out. It cannot be appeased. It has spread and appeared everywhere it finds purchase with intellectual and moral weaklings. Palestine-Israel is just the ideological front line. A spark to set off the blaze, one symptom of the universal disease, not the cause. Even a kid: :https://nypost.com/2023/12/14/news/boy-13-charged-with-planning-mass-shooting-at-synagogue/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons