whYNOT

I could show loads of facts about how monolithic the belief of Palestinians/Arabs has been. There is an 'inborn'* racial superiority over Jews, with the Muslim texts commanding they be killed, mixed in with rage that these inferior Jewish infidels have always defeated them. Their leaders, Arafat on, have been a reflection of fanatical populist beliefs. The majority support for Hamas, on the West Bank too, demonstrates this. Although Fatah is more pragmatic; the leaders realize they depend on Israel's patronage. The right and left in Israel are not so far apart - neither moves from the basic principle, the nation's survival. Their methods and policies will vary. Among those who vote for each, I think one can find vast numbers of individual nuances. So the comparisons are chalk and cheese. What is this about "the settlers"? Overmany views of Zionist-hating Youtube channels? The Israelis are no more "settlers" than say, the Americans are today. It is only that Israel, some postmodern intellectuals might say, is a recent "settler/colonized" addition - that they catch all the guilt fallout for older ones and for all the European nations that had colonies. Israel's "right to exist" is the only one apparently questionable, ongoing perhaps 100 years from now. *Taught and inculcated into most young Palestinian minds, I mean.

For the end of those pro-Israel US lobby groups, I couldn't agree more. (Not for "the end of Israel"). I've always said there should be "some daylight" between Israel and the USA - exactly because I value and have affection for both, I believe their tight relationship isn't healthy for the independence of each, yet fine to maintain a lasting friendship and dialogue.

Again, the tacit expectation now applying Objectivist standards (- "collectivist" or individualist) that the Jew has to somehow and consistently be 'better' than other people and countries. "Unreal and impossible expectations" ? Although that is a sort of backhand compliment to their levels of success, they are human beings not saints. As compared to lower standards (i.e. "They can't help themselves") expected of the Islamist enemies of Jews - (which tacitly indicates an inherent lack of free will in attitudes towards Islamists especially by their Leftist fans at large). Certainly: An assessment of acts should not be prejudged by "expectations", all parties must be held to an objective standard. (the Leftist ideology never departs from the deterministic, binary "victim-victimizer" mold, which Leftists seem to relish. And that's how leftists are the loudest supporters of Hamas/Palestinians, for all that they are proven to be brutally violent. I guess the perennial "victim", the Palestinian, is uplifted by them in order that he remains "the victim" permanently. I imagine their disgust if Palestinians were to volitionally and rationally opt for the good life and made peace with Israel. Back to the Zionists. They did what they deemed essential in order to survive as individuals and a people of an increasingly repressed race-religion in Europe. I'd say it was rational and moral to move out. Later and present events proved them right. Evidently, the general vilification of Jews - by "tribe" - doesn't ever cease, only its justification varies. "Collectivist" cooperation was dictated by the Jews' necessity for survival. Once in a secure nation, they who chose could be "individualist".

It's directed at that and many such opinions I see here, that I wrote "The harsh bigotry of impossible, unrealistic expectations" (leveled at Israel). Israel IS imperfect, by unreal (- and mystical -) expectations. The issues and problems that other, free-ish nations have been struggling with, it appears by its detractors, that Israel ought to have easily overcome. Despite huge obstacles and many enemies around a small land, a spot which is the microcosm of the world's hopes and fears. By its enemies one can judge it. You need only look at and contrast the civilized standards, liberty and achievements of that country with the range of suppressions - theocratic, monarchist, etc., - in all the countries in that region and Israel stands apart. For the fundamentalist terrorists like Hamas against that nation, they are not on the same page, morally, humanely or democratically. BUT, Hamas with evasions and moral equivocation, are given equal, even superior status, by outsiders who despise Jews/israelis. Access granted to any and all incomers to flood into Israel would eventually, or rapidly - by genocide - end their national identity -- or greatly reduce Jews' numbers. (The internal population of Muslims certainly are not leaving Israel, the immigration applications from Palestinians to domicile there is continuous). By playing on demographics and "the right to return", do the PA and Hamas keep the issue incendiary: "No negotiation, no recognition", from Abbas - when given the most equitable terms for a separate state . I repeat, Palestinians want it all, and are prepared to be patient, awaiting Israel's downfall, by force and any means. Abroad, with pro-Palestine fervor, the sentiment I noticed decades ago has been exploding: Israel is the root cause of Islamist hatred of the West and its terror assaults there. There are over a billion Muslims and only 20 million Jews in the world. Simple equation. Get rid of that little nation which causes our troubles, allow its sacrifice, and we will placate the Islamic world and end our fears...

A diatribe. "Oddities", mystical pamphlets and anecdotal 'evidence' from a few maniacs of the same type found on the edges in any religion, who most Jews (I am sure) would state do not represent "the Jewish religion".

"Religious wars" - not quite. Religion wasn't the primary element of early Israel, a safe sanctuary and self-determination was. It's a common mistake to reify the Jews into a single category. They are about as disparate as all individuals in all groups outside of Judaism. Judaism is "ethno-religious". Part ethnicity, part faith. One may choose to drop the convictions entirely and still identify "Jewish" in one's own eyes, or not, especially in others'. When Jews came under social/legal/religious repression in the European early 20 C, some, who happened to be Socialists and irreligious, began to realize they all, collectively, needed a secure homeland; so some early settlements in part of that large Ottoman territory - known later as Palestine- bought from the Turkish owners - were encouraged, financed and farmed. The Zionists' prescience of the increasing dangers to all Jews was completely vindicated in hindsight. A flood of Jewish refugees from post-War Europe and many Arab lands where they, the original Spanish Jews, had been barely tolerated under "dhimmi" status for 500 years found a place they could make their own. Internationally - *legally* - granted/partitioned for Jews - before anyone forgets. The attacking Arab countries in '48, onwards ~were~ motivated by religious fanaticism, and the "Zionists" or Israelis, now an ethno-religious-nationalist entity, responded in their common defence. So not then -or presently - are they considered by Israelis as "religious" wars. This now is a proper nation, equal citizens of several 'groups' (including 2 million Muslim-Israelis) and individuals threatened by a terrorist group posing as 'a government' with the goal of eliminating them all. Terrorists make no such fine distinctions. Leftist and secular Jews who usually sympathized with Palestinians are finding out to their horror that they are as loathed by their fellow Leftists, and Islamists, for " being Jewish" as the religious ones, and as likely to be picked upon and isolated in western nations or be murdered and abducted in Israel, as many were.

It is really simple. Hamas has been and is, explicitly, dedicated to wiping out Israel. Never the reverse; with ample opportunity, justification, and overwhelming military power. Until now, with many provocations, several defensive minor wars and skirmishes, and almost daily rocket attacks since Hamas came in in 2006 --Israel did not wish or attempt to reciprocate. They thought with the carrot and stick they could civilize Gaza to be responsible and independent. All Palestinians steadily rejected a 2-state solution. They want the entire land with no Israel. Now, when Israel decides "enough" - the world cries Foul! The weak 'victims' have unlimited license to 'defend' themselves, the strong are allowed very little. That egregious moral double standard the Left in particular has normalized.

Number of Hamas soldiers/terrorists? 30-40,000 Hamas fighters, officially. Reuters says 40k. Many more 'irregulars' can be added, the untrained and youngsters forced to bear weapons, carry out suicide ops, etc. Therefore, the "genocide" alarmists/Israeli-haters can expect (base minimum) 30,000 "civilians" killed, if the war runs its full course. And prove their point. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjK5NupvKeCAxWAT0EAHVbeCacQFnoECBsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.axios.com%2F2023%2F10%2F21%2Fpalestine-hamas-military-power&usg=AOvVaw1XKLUPkwdQZr4d1nohaiZm&opi=89978449

Slipping into "moral equivalence" needs to be watched out for. Everyone of the global "pro-Palestinians" is doing it. One signifier: Relative "numbers" of casualties, already "disproportionately" in Israel's 'favor' is obviously going to greatly increase before this is done. "They lost x people, we are losing x++ people". Unfair! Genocidal! What everyone evades: this is a war of retaliatory self-defence. "Existential" - for Israel. First, to end the immediate assault. Israel has briefly done that many times with Gaza, then stood down in order to save civilian lives, and bought a short period of non-hostilities.. It did not work--self-evidently. Second and extended stage of their self-defence, to ensure a repeated attack cannot ever recur.

From a recent Times of Israel story. This not meant to confirm my numbers-deception hypothesis. It shows for the first time I've seen anywhere, a little push-back against what the "Hamas-run health ministry" puts out, accepted by all as Gospel Truth - does not distinguish between civilians and terror ...exactly. They are all "civilians". Not one, or one thousand - or e.g. 5000 - of the (purported today) 9000+ deaths 'a fighter against Zionism'. The Hamas terrorists simply disappeared into thin air, the IDF can't find them anywhere in that tiny territory. According to the Hamas-run health ministry, more than 8,700 Palestinians have been killed in the war, and more than 22,000 people have been wounded. The figure, which could not be confirmed, would be without precedent in decades of Israeli-Palestinian violence. Hamas has been accused of artificially inflating the death toll, and it also does not distinguish between civilians and terror operatives. The terror group has pushed back against such claims, releasing an unverified list of names it says represent those killed. Some of the dead are believed to be victims of Palestinian terrorists’ own misfired rockets.

Try to stay with the program; my estimate was not meant to be accurate. A rough device to reveal the Hamas b.s. The claim: 8000 "civilians" killed <-> NIL Hamas terrorists killed, per report. The absurdity should be plain. There's no doubt terrorists have been getting hit regularly for weeks. By conflating "citizens" and terrorists in one statistic, Hamas has enormously a). inflated "civilian" casualties b). covered up ANY of their operatives' losses. The object evidently to depict abroad how brutal the Israelis are, and how ineffective their forces are. That an obvious deception goes unchallenged by reporters and aid agencies who obediently passed the Narrative down the media chain, and considering what this kind of news has been doing to ostracize and incite violence on Jews everywhere, shows their professional dishonesty and moral cowardice. (E.g. on last Sunday the IDF reported "hitting 600 targets". They don't release much but what there is is usually genuine. At a low figure, if just a few terrorists were killed per target that's already over 1000 - for any who believe the "targets" were hospitals, children's creches and old age homes there's no hope for you).

That burning question going unasked by journalists: "How many of those "at least 8000" killed were civilians?" Assuming that figure is factual. Every news channel parrots the same figures without analysis. The inference to the gullible non-thinkers, the IDF is so inept and-or "genocidal" that few/no terrorists were killed. Mainly civilians. They couldn't find Hamas operatives, anywhere... But only Hamas terrorists were its stated objective. I'll venture a certainty, the terrorist casualties have been (at minimum) 6-7000 of that number. The IDF have the Intel, surveillance and observers to be sure of Hamas locations and movements. Their surface to surface and air-ground missiles are top notch and are pinpoint accurate. Past conflict experience showed how the Gazan deaths had been fabricated (by Palestine media and medics too) by an order of magnitude, and were always blindly accepted in the msm. The civilian deaths therefore are likely little more than a thousand, so far. Where that leaves the vicious illogic of "3400 children deaths" is as a "blood libel" against Jews/Zionists calculated to inflame hatred and assaults against millions of Jews in the world as well as isolate Israel. With lies and appeals to emotion, Hamas/Gaza has again won for itself the moral high ground among a disturbingly large number of the world. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDnYStyaCCAxUPVkEAHQAtC10QvOMEKAB6BAgLEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fnews%2Fisrael-war-hamas-says-gaza-death-toll-8000-idf-ground-troops%2F&usg=AOvVaw3YFPoqX6QEG-4zDaPZrRpB&opi=89978449

The bad news for a peaceful transition to self-rule. Most Palestinians feel Hamas represents them. https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20089/hamas-represent-palestinians

Somewhat, with laws in the statute books too. "Whites" - all 7% of them - still have to carry the blame for an inept and corrupt Gvt's failures. But don't mention that to O'ist social-activists and Wokeists. Inverse racism is not something they can take in or want to face. They'd have to think in principles. Racism can only go one way. I have news for them: Seeing you are unable to reason, wait until you are a minority demographic (without individual rights, of course). Additionally, they celebrate any minority demographic, e.g. Jews, the SA whites, etc., getting the pay-back "they deserve". Self-identifying themselves as vindictive and frightened tribalists like the crowds adulating the Hamas killers.

Take your identity politics elsewhere. You know less than nothing about me. But - but - its says "South Africa"! And he has a whitey name! "We know the type..." That is the most blatant anti-individualism I've seen on an Oist forum. .

Not to be victims -- again. i.e. the survivors. Got it? The Palestinians could - and I know a couple who have - turn from nihilism to self-value. Now get lost. I don't answer to fascist Jew-haters.

It is not what happens to you, it's what you do about it. Anyone who claims that anyone else, due to an ancestral/personal background of repression, victimization etc. can do little to nothing to help themselves, to value their life and those close, put productive energy into it and make it worth living, probably is a determinist. Anyone who claims anyone else is incapable - because of their ethnicity - is likely a collectivist-racist. Did you study Objectivism? Hearing this is what riles Leftist "racialists" (i.e. for whom one's race explains and often excuses everything) who adore their "victims": "The soft bigotry of lowered expectations". Meaning, most of the world doesn't expect high standards from Palestinians. They should begin to. That people cannot cling to victimhood forever. Jews in Israel successfully rose above their dark and recent past. "Envy/hatred of the good for being the good". Heard that? Palestinian individualists could rise also. Few have. Most prefer to exploit their public and collective image of helpless suffering. Simply, most have been taught to hate Jews and obediently go along .

The "last Ukrainian" perhaps will survive. It was a given that, once committed, Russia would not be driven out; Ukraine would be largely drained, for - "principles". Victory, at all costs, to keep Russia in its place. Mediate with Putin and make concessions - initially agreed upon by Kiev before outside interference- (and his quite reasonable security demands), long before arriving at this point - unthinkable.

Fiery. More Gazan genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, occupation (!) a concentration camp. "End the blockade, the siege on Palestine!" And what pre-justified the blockade (of Gaza) after Hamas came to power? Precisely the results culminating on 7/10. Hamas many times proved itself a lethal danger that could not be allowed arms shipments and intrusions into Israel. Etc. Visibly, pro-Palestinians out there demonstrate the "soft bigotry of lowered expectations" directed at Palestinians. "But what are those poor victims of Israel supposed to do?!" How about stop being "victims", practise courage, begin to assume self-responsibility for your lives and start to thrive? The exemplar of that, Israel, would be only glad to help an honest attempt at Gaza's independent coexistence. Directed against Israelis, from all over - the harsh bigotry of unreal, impossible expectations. (Now the appeal to emotion has "2500 children" out of 6000 killed...sure...) Morgan and his co-host are good here.

The smear "genocide" has been egregiously used (and planted by Islamist propagandists--right, this has all been "master-minded") and is now undisputed in certain quarters to be Israel's grand plan. Together with falsified casualties from Hamas: "6000 dead". Long time Gaza-conflict watchers are familiar with their huge exaggerations of casualties to satisfy the mainstream media's anti-israel bias. Particularly, any dead children. But also I notice that not one journalist has pointed out that, certainly, the majority of those (inflated) figures and dead bodies on display were Hamas terrorists. Of course - the IDF usually has intel of exactly where many terrorists were and are holed up. All, "innocent civilians"? No, it's against IDF policy and orders, considered unethical. The tactic by Hamas is, as before, to hide and shield themselves among the crowds. They understand they are the - only - target for eradication. So the "humanitarian" orgs calling for aid and ceasefire are, innocently or not, covering for terrorists. But all the images from Gaza have focused useful-hatefilled idiots with short attention span, on the retaliations in Gaza, while the atrocities by Hamas blur into the past and can be later disputed. The intention: first to level the two sides into "moral equivalence", and next step, as one can observe, the Israelis/world Jewry are turned into the world's moral pariahs wishing to 'genocide' those noble martyrs. The only genocide planned and long verbalized by Hamas is of the "Zionists". They just recently had a taste of it. I generally like Robby Soave who is the more objective speaker.

There'd not have been a war without close collusion of Western Gvts./Nato with their flunky western media. The immense sacrifices demanded requires sanction from unthinking, misinformed majorities, driven by emotions whipped up by the media. Ukraine in some regional wrangle with Russia? Were there solutions on hand? Yes. Simply slap temporary sanctions on both; tell them both to behave, stand down and begin negotiations--instantly - before conflict escalates. Why is it our business? - stay out. If just in retrospect, one can now see that was too simple or rational; an unsuitable resolution contrary to the ultimate goals of the 'powers that be. Therefore, they intended war.

The "Nakba". Also, the "right of return". These are presented as purported causes of the continuous Islamist-"Zionist" strife. I'm saying that masses of people can end up on the wrong side of historical events, like a major war, and get displaced, and worse. The huge Ottoman empire was broken up and restructured into new borders (not too well) by the winning British and their allies - and to cut the story short, from some of it they formed e.g. Jordan, and they allocated another small portion of this land to Arabs, a portion to arriving Jews, split about 50-50. The latter accepted, the former denounced the plan. Inside the Jewish land were many Arab villages to complicate matters. The countries of the Arab League attacked the new state, in 1948, many Arab homeowners fled, many were ordered to flee by the Arab army, to return after the Zionists had been driven out - but instead they lost the war and in the process some more were thrown out of their homes by the winning Jews. The total of Arabs who left voluntarily and didn't come back and were forced out approximates 700, 000, and is "the Catastrophe" - Nakba - blamed entirely in Muslim propaganda on the Jews/Israelis, but due to Arab responses largely. Those who didn't leave were the forefathers of the present Arab-Israeli citizens. So the Palestinians suffered doubly because of a. the defeat of the Turks and b. the defeat of the Arab League. And also, their own irrational intransigence regarding Jews. If they had not overtly hated Zionists but agreed to live side by side, the majority could well have kept their properties. I think it doubtful any descendants, now in the several millions, owned and still have property documents. All this is indicative of the self-sacrificial evil of permanently holding a hateful grudge, group to group, and passing it on to their offspring. Many of our parents and forefathers were 'victims' of the wrong time and wrong place, circumstances outside their control. Mostly, they conversely chose to leave it behind and get on with improving their and their families' lives.

Oh sure. Then we all (excepting the indigenous people) must all return to the places we came from. First proving who and what "indigenous people" in pre-history and later times actually are today, after their nomadic wanderings, settling here and there, slave trade, early empires and their wars of conquest and expulsion - and so on. Infinite regress? Everybody finishes up in Southern Africa. Happy? Israel is certainly older than Hamas. Apparently, the early Hebrew tribes were older than Palestinians too.

The above is what I wrote. "As long as they are not pacifists against self-defense..." I have no interest if Agnes is a peace activist pro- or against self-defense. Anyhow, they are not mutually exclusive, she might be for world peace while also for the right of defense. I do not need to know either. She and her host made a compelling case for Sweden and Swedes being fear-mongered to join NATO. That corresponds to what I read and surmised. My interest in Agnes ends there.

Indeed, An active and receptive (not "open") mind is recommended. It's an impossibility to trace back, validate and communicate your entire conceptual store to another, given that it began inductively from a multitude of 'facts in reality'. True OR false - OR unproven, as yet - while, (im)probable/(im)possible/(un)likely - constitute the triple poles, to my mind (I'm not fond of "the arbitrary assertion" theory, whose importance escapes me: E.g., the onus is solely with the claimant to verify his/her assertion. Cognitive rigidity will follow from this. The utterly ridiculous assertion speaks for itself - it's false, not "arbitrary". If one is interested and enjoys expanding one's knowledge, one would surely set about proving/disproving someone's claim for oneself. A so-called "charity read", would begin with accepting a debater's veracity: why would this person set out to lie and to deceive? Therefore, until seen to be a regular character flaw, I listen in good faith while suspending judgment of its truth content (they could be innocently wrong too). (The constant and unjust accusations of lying puts me on guard, I find they are very often a projection of the accuser's own untruthfulness).