Taxes: The Taxman And The Objectivist

[rgargan]

If the taxman demands money from me, what should I do as an objectivist? If I don't pay him then I will be sent to court. If I still refuse to pay, bailiffs will come and physically remove items of value from my home.

Edited June 25, 2005 by softwareNerd

[dark_stranger]

The bailiff will do worse than come and take things from your house; ultimately he will take your life if you do not comply.

With this in mind you do the only thing you can: pay it. Find the legal ways to pay him as little as possible, and keep looking for ways to change the political system that created and supports the "tax man".

d_s

[rgargan]

In "Atlas Shrugged", one by one the characters realise that it is they who have sanctioned what happens to them. By continuing to be productive and to give in to the looters demands for some of this production, you sanction the looter to loot from you. The message is to remove your production and therefore there is nothing to loot.

Have I sanctioned the taxman? By producing something of value that the taxman wants, that I know he will steal from me, am I sanctioning him?

[stephen_speicher]

If the taxman demands money from me, what should I do as an objectivist? If I don't pay him then I will be sent to court. If I still refuse to pay, bailiffs will come and physically remove items of value from my home.

Pay him, and do everything that you can to make your world such that the tax man does not exist.

[stephen_speicher]

In "Atlas Shrugged", one by one the characters realise that it is they who have sanctioned what happens to them. By continuing to be productive and to give in to the looters demands for some of this production, you sanction the looter to loot from you. The message is to remove your production and therefore there is nothing to loot.

Have I sanctioned the taxman? By producing something of value that the taxman wants, that I know he will steal from me, am I sanctioning him?

You did not create the system; your were born into it. You live your life as best as you can and you do everything possible to change the world within which you live. It is not a sanction as long as you do not intellectually support and advocate the system that makes the tax man possible.

[rgargan]

You did not create the system; your were born into it. You live your life as best as you can and you do everything possible to change the world within which you live. It is not a sanction as long as you do not intellectually support and advocate the system that makes the tax man possible.

Does what you have just said contradict the message of "Atlas Shrugged"? In the book it clearly indicates that to produce what you know will be looted is to sanction the looter.

[DavidOdden]

If the taxman demands money from me, what should I do as an objectivist? If I don't pay him then I will be sent to court. If I still refuse to pay, bailiffs will come and physically remove items of value from my home.

I argue that you should refuse to pay him. Take the consequences: evil laws deserve to be exposed for what they are (the word "refuse" is distinct from the word "fail", if you catch my drift). The basic moral of the story from Atlas Shrugged is that you can't demand that people sacrifice themselves and expect that rational being will continue to do so forever. Concentrate on the question, why didn't Dagny leave the insanity immediately? What values are you trying to keep? Don't ask me to apply my values to you. You need to be sufficiently self-aware, that you know the answer to the question "Why do I remain in this society?" Dagny continued to live in hell to keep something of value to her -- when it because clear that this was not possible, end of story.

(BTW, in your last post you claim "In the book it clearly indicates that to produce what you know will be looted is to sanction the looter". This is wrong: if you've got a bsis for that claim, you should bring it out).

[stephen_speicher]

Does what you have just said contradict the message of "Atlas Shrugged"? In the book it clearly indicates that to produce what you know will be looted is to sanction the looter.

If you mean to withdraw your sanction and go on strike, that was a wonderful plot structure that clearly distinguished those who produce, from those who loot, and showed the consequences by having the producers withdraw from the world. That was not meant, however, as a call for action that we should all go on strike. Ayn Rand believed in fighting for the world we want to live in by doing all we can to help make that world now. The circumstances in the United States are from the world of Atlas Shrugged, and we do not have an Atlantis to live in. Better to enjoy one's live to the fullest extent possible, and fight for things that we know are right. This is, primarily, an intellectual battle, and as long as that battle can be fought, there is hope.

[pvtmorriscsa]

If you mean to withdraw your sanction and go on strike, that was a wonderful plot structure that clearly distinguished those who produce, from those who loot, and showed the consequences by having the producers withdraw from the world. That was not meant, however, as a call for action that we should all go on strike. Ayn Rand believed in fighting for the world we want to live in by doing all we can to help make that world now. The circumstances in the United States are from the world of Atlas Shrugged, and we do not have an Atlantis to live in. Better to enjoy one's live to the fullest extent possible, and fight for things that we know are right. This is, primarily, an intellectual battle, and as long as that battle can be fought, there is hope.

Why shouldn’t we go on strike? If we don’t withdrawal our sanction from our looter overrun world, are we not de facto giving it our sanction?

I suppose you could be right, and the idea of a strike is plot device but if we give our sanction are we not in fact sanctioning evil? If we sanction evil are we not accepting evil? If we accept evil are we not evil ourselves?

I do not feel guilty or bad because I happen to live in this system. Why should I? It was wrecked long before I was born.

Rand revealed to me in Atlas Shrugged, that I had a choice. I could either be a slave to the looters or I could be free from them. Up until then I did not realize that it was a choice I could make. I followed the old lesser of two evils approach to social change. My reading showed me that choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. How can I call myself moral, and yet choose evil?

I know Rand is on the record saying we should work from within the system. However she died 22 years ago and things have changed since then. She might have a different opinion on the issue were she here right now.

As for me, I am on strike.

[Capitalism Forever]

As for me, I am on strike.

What did you produce before you went on strike?

[nimble]

What did you produce before you went on strike?

That seems almost intended to offend, unless you are asking him what his former occupation is. But i dont think that was your intention.

[Betsy]

Why shouldn’t we go on strike? 

There are important values that can be pursued and achieved in our world, even as it is now.

If we don’t withdrawal our sanction from our looter overrun world, are we not de facto giving it our sanction?

Not if we are forced to. "Morality ends where a gun begins." Sanction means voluntarily acknowledging the moral legitimacy of something and not just dealing with it or supporting it under duress and while protesting it.

I know Rand is on the record saying we should work from within the system.  However she died 22 years ago and things have changed since then.  She might have a different opinion on the issue were she here right now.

I think she would be more optimistic. The 1970's were a cultural low point, but we began turning around, politically in the 1980's. In the last two decades, Objectivism itself is beginning to emerge and take hold as a cultural force.

As for me, I am on strike.

As for me, I'm living my life, fighting for and achieving my values, and cheering on my fellow Objectivists as they fight for their values.

[oldsalt]

The political situation depicted in Atlas is not the situation in which we now live. The system is no where near the tipping point, as bad as it is. One of the most important elements in the book was the fact of government censorship of speech. We do not suffer from government censorship, the government does not control the media. Miss Rand herself said that until that happens, we ought to fight the system intellectually and from within.

Betsy's advice is on point. You only have one life and you ought to live it with enjoyment by doing what you love. By going on strike now, you only waste your potential productiveness and, thus, your greatest source of happiness.

Ask yourself if, in reality, your gesture truly furthers the battle against irrationalism. Does going on strike further your own happiness? What are you giving up, and for what gain? Is it the best way to gain your goal of a true capitalist system (and if that isn't your goal, what is?)?

Rememer that your own life and happiness is the most important consideration. Please forgive the presumption, but if I were you, I would make damned sure that I fully understood all of my reasons and motivations for making the drastic decision to limit my own production and forego the benefits of my own work. It is an enormous leap from what is a plot device used to dramatize a philisophical position to the real world. Even taking this device at face value, remember that the people who went on strike didn't do so as a mere gesture. Their goal wasn't something they thought their children's children might eventually attain, but something they knew they had a good chance of attaining for themselves. Can you say as much?

[meganfiala]

I really like the way you put that Janet. I just recently moved on from the idea of striking, and realized that it was not the way to go. Sometimes though, especially for me (I'm only 20) it's hard to find the inspiration to pursue my goals, even though I have held them since I was a child. What keeps you going, may I ask?

megan

[oldsalt]

QUOTE

What keeps you going, may I ask?

megan

UNQUOTE

What keeps me going is the joy I find in living.

I can understand how a young person can feel discouraged. Miss Rand answers so many questions about evil in the world and some of them are very hard to take. It may seem easier to believe in some outside force that causes evil. It is hard to realize what people are capable of doing to themselves. I remember that the recurring question in Atlas, "Does he want to live?", and the ultimate answer, disturbed me for a very long time. I was a nurse. I had lost my first husband somewhere over North Vietnam. I had served as a Navy nurse in Vietnam and seen what death could look like. The obscenity of a Jim Taggart was almost more than I could take.

I'm much older now and life has taught me that no matter what happens to me, I make the final decision to live or not. I don't mean whether or not I breathe and my heart beats, but HOW I view my life. I am solely responsible for my values and my goals. I may be hampered, but I still choose whether or not to make the effort, and only effort will earn your happiness. I choose whether or not I find joy in the world.

What I'm not responsible for is how anyone else lives their life.

[stephen_speicher]

QUOTE

What keeps you going, may I ask?

megan

UNQUOTE

What keeps me going is the joy I find in living.

I can understand how a young person can feel discouraged.  Miss Rand answers so many questions about evil in the world and some of them are very hard to take.  It may seem easier to believe in some outside force that causes evil.  It is hard to realize what people are capable of doing to themselves.  I remember that the recurring question in Atlas, "Does he want to live?", and the ultimate answer, disturbed me for a very long time.  I was a nurse.  I had lost my first husband somewhere over North Vietnam.  I had served as a Navy nurse in Vietnam and seen what death could look like.  The obscenity of a Jim Taggart was almost more than I could take.

I'm much older now and life has taught me that no matter what happens to me, I make the final decision to live or not.  I don't mean whether or not I breathe and my heart beats, but HOW I view my life. I am solely responsible for my values and my goals.  I may be hampered, but I still choose whether or not to make the effort, and only effort will earn your happiness.  I choose whether or not I find joy in the world. 

What I'm not responsible for is how anyone else lives their life.

Janet, yours is one of the most beautifully expressed postings I have ever read. You really are a wonderful person. Thank you so much, for being you.

[nimble]

if only i were a girl then maybe i could be admired in that fashion too.

[oldsalt]

Thank you, Stephen. I've come to hold you (and your wife) in high regard and it means a lot to have you say such a thing.

[Capitalism Forever]

That seems almost intended to offend, unless you are asking him what his former occupation is. But i dont think that was your intention.

Yes, I am asking what his former occupation is.

If the CEOs of Exxon Mobil, Wal-Mart, United Airlines, Coca Cola, and General Electric went on strike at the same time, America--and the world--couldn't help but notice. If a Brooklyn cab driver goes on strike, no one is significantly affected--except for the cab driver himself.

[meganfiala]

Thanks Janet

[oldsalt]

Your welcome, Megan. I hope it helped.

[Betsy]

As for me, I'm living my life, fighting for and achieving my values, and cheering on my fellow Objectivists as they fight for their  values.

I was about to cheer for Janet (oldsalt), because she deserves it and not because she needs it. She has SO MUCH realistic optimism of her own and doesn't need additional encouragement from me.

Isn't it interesting that Janet and I -- a couple of "old-timers" -- are so much more optimistic than the younger members. Maybe that's because the teens and twenties are such a difficult time of life. There are so many big decisions to make yet so much is unknown and still to be learned. It's a situation filled with anxiety and confusion.

All I can say to those just getting started in Objectivism and in life: Hang in there. Learn all you can about life (Objectivism is a BIG help) and about yourself and your values. Go for the things you love and throw your whole self into it. In a few years you will be on much more solid ground, secure in your abilities and your place in the world, and much more optimistic.