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shyboy

Is Violence the only way to get change?

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RationalBiker deleted my thread earlier but I want you all to know that I'm not advocating violence. I just want to know the objectivist way to get change. I guess you would call me somewhat of a Mechavallian. Violence is the only way that I see we can have change in america. Even those in the 60's DIED in the name of peace. In a nutshell, people DIED for change. there's always a violent result when making change. even jesus went out crucified

peace is what we want

violence is what usually occurs in order to achieve peace

and thus the paradox

What are you alls point of view.

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The protection of individual rights is what we want. Peace is a side-effect.

Violence is obviously not the only way to get change. It requires a gradual process that requires ingraining a philosophy in the population, such that they act on that philosophy. If you want significant change in the next year, then yes, you'll have to overthrow the government.

An Objectivist government, implemented right now in America, would not last, simply because the majority of the population believes the government's job is to "help people" rather than strictly limiting itself to the protection of rights violations.

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I just want to know the objectivist way to get change.
In the US and similar free nations, by causing the election of politicians who respect rights, and by supporting the institution of rights-respecting laws especially through the initiative process.
Violence is the only way that I see we can have change in america.
Since that's patently false, you must have in mind something other than "change". Perhaps you mean, the dictatorship of the proletariat? That is indeed the cause of "change" in Cuba, China, Russia, Korea, and indeed every dictatorship.

"Peace" is meaningless by itself. Dead people enjoy peace. Prisoners in solitary confinement enjoy peace. Is it peace that you want? For years, African "immigrants" in the US had the peace of hard labor and moral certainty as to what would happen to them if they didn't comply. A rational man will realize that the primary political goal should be respect for rights; from which follows peace; which may require change. Neither change nor peace are, in and of themselves, worth a damn.

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In the US and similar free nations, by causing the election of politicians who respect rights, and by supporting the institution of rights-respecting laws especially through the initiative process.Since that's patently false, you must have in mind something other than "change". Perhaps you mean, the dictatorship of the proletariat? That is indeed the cause of "change" in Cuba, China, Russia, Korea, and indeed every dictatorship.

"Peace" is meaningless by itself. Dead people enjoy peace. Prisoners in solitary confinement enjoy peace. Is it peace that you want? For years, African "immigrants" in the US had the peace of hard labor and moral certainty as to what would happen to them if they didn't comply. A rational man will realize that the primary political goal should be respect for rights; from which follows peace; which may require change. Neither change nor peace are, in and of themselves, worth a damn.

I read this in your defense against affirmative action...

A high school student with a below average academic record is likely to be a below average college student. Thus, students admitted through minority recruiting programs often end up in remedial classes with mediocre academic performance. Through simple cause and effect, affirmative action programs prolong the stereotype of minority students finishing near the bottom of their class by encouraging enrollment in universities beyond an appropriate level of difficulty. According to a federal study, just 39% of enrolled black students finish their degrees compared to 54% of white students. Attending a university where the pace of learning is too difficult is just as counterproductive as attempting to lift too much weight at the gym.

The insistence on relaxed admission standards for minority students insinuates that such students are incapable of succeeding without such programs. This insult casts a permanent doubt on the real achievements of high-achieving minorities.

So you would rather just have no or very few minority students because somehow that would make it look like minorites are smarter because less of them have gone to college ?

What about the fact that many of the minority students have fewer resourses then their white counter parts do at the grade school and high school level ? Should that just be ignored in the university admision process ?

Edited by softwareNerd
Added quote block

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I read this in your defense against affirmative action...

So you would rather just have no or very few minority students because somehow that would make it look like minorites are smarter because less of them have gone to college ?

What about the fact that many of the minority students have fewer resourses then their white counter parts do at the grade school and high school level ? Should that just be ignored in the university admision process ?

Yes it should. But if a university is created that wants to discriminate on such a basis, it certainly is not within anyone else's right to force them to not discriminate. Thus in a free society the problem would not exist.

But it occurs to me that perhaps you are mistaken. Understand this is not a forum for the ideas of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam.

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Yes it should. But if a university is created that wants to discriminate on such a basis, it certainly is not within anyone else's right to force them to not discriminate. Thus in a free society the problem would not exist.

But it occurs to me that perhaps you are mistaken. Understand this is not a forum for the ideas of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam.

Yea, I know that is why I put that question in this thread. I just wanted you alls views on things. I don't know what you mean, on such basis, what basis are you talking about?

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Yea, I know that is why I put that question in this thread. I just wanted you alls views on things. I don't know what you mean, on such basis, what basis are you talking about?

I'm confused like are you saying that the solution to removing the stigma of being a minority student at an established university, tainted by the fact that a few students that share the same skin colour as you are bad students, is to force all minority students, with the exception of the very smartest, into minority only universities ?

If this is too much for this board I would love to pm one of ya'll.

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What does affirmative action have to do with "violence to get change"?

I just wanted you alls views on things.

What experience or knowledge do you have about Objectivism. One thing to note is that Objectivist views are not like those of Libertarians - that is, our view stem from observation and integration of reality, rather than some random abstraction that we want. Have you read any Ayn Rand? Do you have any interest in Ayn Rand? Simply asking our opinions is asking for conclusions without the justification, and that simply accomplishes nothing.

One must first understand Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology before one can make a logical conclusion on a derivative political concept like Affirmative Action.

Here's a quick one-liner for you: Affirmative Action is racism.

Edited by Chops

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What does affirmative action have to do with "violence to get change"?

It essentially comes in a package deal of beliefs advanced by the members of the Nation of Islam under current leader Lou Farrakhan.

Such beliefs include the teaching that blacks are the original humans and whites are potential human beings who have not yet evolved, the advocation of the seperation from America by blacks in order to create their own state, seperate segregated schools with only black teachers, prohibition of interracial marriage, antisemitism, and the understanding that the moon was created by a black man who attempted to end humankind by drilling a 4000 ft deep mine shaft and detonating an explosive at the bottom, blasting off a piece of the earth which then became the moon.

Edited by adrock3215

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I'm confused like are you saying that the solution to removing the stigma of being a minority student at an established university,

One of the problems here is that the idea of “minority” student is so focused upon. If that were not focused on by society, and people were merely looked on as individuals, the problem wouldn’t exist.

tainted by the fact that a few students that share the same skin colour as you are bad students, is to force all minority students, with the exception of the very smartest, into minority only universities ?

You shouldn't care what others think, you should be concerned with your own life and happiness and follow reason to achieve them. You should pursue your life and happiness and dreams and goals for your own sake, and it doesn't hurt to find heroes, real of fictional, to keep you inspired and light the fire inside you. This is especially valuable in those moments of weakness, when you don't feel so inspired.

As to the social realm, just find good friends. Find people that you can value and who value you as an individual. That, I think, can help create a more benevolent atmosphere for you. You'll like your life more if you find good people to be around. <_<

Here’s the thing, what do you want to do with your life? What do you want to be? Answer that question, and pursue your goals. Don’t let anything get in the way of that. This is what should light a fire within you. Obstacles are to be laughed at. Will it be easy? Not if you take on a goal that is challenging to you, which everyone ought to do.

Changing society is a much bigger problem, you learn this from reading history, and I mean going back thousands of years to get real perspective. You will always have much more control over you the individual. Changing society is a long range philosophical process, and can only be done by changing minds, but then you have to have the right ideas. That’s not easy.

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I read this in your defense against affirmative action...
No, that isn't me. One clue is, I don't blog. But let's move on.
So you would rather just have no or very few minority students because somehow that would make it look like minorites are smarter because less of them have gone to college ?
I don't know what a "minority" student is. If I understand the concept correctly, I'd prefer to have fewer minorities than majorities, since the numbers work out better. For example I could have 10 minority categories which each compose 10% of the population, but there is only one majority group, however you decide to categorize people. Anyway, if by "minority" you mean Asians, men, Jews, Blacks and so on, I don't have a preference one way or the other, about those parameters. I guess it would matter what domain you were talking about. Like, do you mean "being soldiers" or "being garbage men" or "being topless dancers" or "being undergraduate students"? I would just as soon not have any men being topless dancers. As far as students go, it doesn't matter to me whether the students are black or white. OTOH I would, from a professional perspective, prefer to have a few more Somali students.
What about the fact that many of the minority students have fewer resourses then their white counter parts do at the grade school and high school level ? Should that just be ignored in the university admision process ?
Yeah, I don't think that would matter even if it were true. We ought to only admit students of ability, not students of color. If you think there is some problem with black students, and there might be, I'd suggest figuring out what the cause is. Sowell and McWorter have got it figured out, but then there is the problem of persuading the end user. Do you understand what the problem is (hint: it has nothing to do with "resources")?

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From violence to racism!? I have to agree with David here, what are we changing, how will the end result of this use of violence be a valuable peace? Violence can be used as a tool but it is more often than not the last tool in the box one should want to pull out.

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Sowell and McWorter have got it figured out, but then there is the problem of persuading the end user.

Thanks is in order for recommending these two. There seem to be quite a few interesting reads written between the two of them that I intend to pick up.

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What does affirmative action have to do with "violence to get change"?

I would assert that these two things are closer than they seem. Affirmative Action is merely using the pull of law to achieve an end which is not in the proper scope of government. What backs the pull of law? Force (violence).

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No, that isn't me. One clue is, I don't blog. But let's move on.I don't know what a "minority" student is. If I understand the concept correctly, I'd prefer to have fewer minorities than majorities, since the numbers work out better. For example I could have 10 minority categories which each compose 10% of the population, but there is only one majority group, however you decide to categorize people. Anyway, if by "minority" you mean Asians, men, Jews, Blacks and so on, I don't have a preference one way or the other, about those parameters. I guess it would matter what domain you were talking about. Like, do you mean "being soldiers" or "being garbage men" or "being topless dancers" or "being undergraduate students"? I would just as soon not have any men being topless dancers. As far as students go, it doesn't matter to me whether the students are black or white. OTOH I would, from a professional perspective, prefer to have a few more Somali students.Yeah, I don't think that would matter even if it were true. We ought to only admit students of ability, not students of color. If you think there is some problem with black students, and there might be, I'd suggest figuring out what the cause is. Sowell and McWorter have got it figured out, but then there is the problem of persuading the end user. Do you understand what the problem is (hint: it has nothing to do with "resources")?

So what you're proposing is that, if I do happen to be one of those lucky minorities who is able to get into an upper level university without the assisstance of the system we have now, that I should forget my community/family/culture I left behind and assimilate into the majority? The majority that still hasn't proven itself to be capable of looking out for the good of the minority? Why do you think this would all of a sudden change if we got rid of the Civil Rights Act?

Edited by shyboy

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So what you're proposing is that, if I do happen to be one of those lucky minorities who is able to get into an upper level university without the assisstance of the system we have now,...
If you are able to get into university without assistance of "the system", what has this got to do with luck? It has to do with your qualifications and the things you (and your parents) did to put you in that position. The typical poor person in the U.S. has no excuse in terms of resources. They're better off in terms of resources than many kids from India who come to the U.S. for higher studies. The critical difference is not resources, but values and priorities.

..., that I should forget my community/family/culture I left behind and assimilate into the majority?
If one's family has been instrumental in making one what one is, including getting into a good university on merit, why would one want to forget it?

As for one's "community" that depends: there are certain aspects -- e.g. the food -- that one might always like. On the other hand, if the people who lived around you did not value things like education the way you and your family did, then what do you have in common with them, fundamentally? Suppose, for example, my grandfather and my neighbor's had both been persecuted by a mob in India of 1947, and had joined resources to flee to Pakistan. This would not imply that he and I (the grand-kids) have much in common other than that history and some incidental, optional preferences that came from growing up in the same area.

Deep community comes from the sharing of fundamental values, not superficial concrete values like food, clothing, location, accent and skin-color. For instance, if I were to ask which people in the world are most like me, there are many who live in different countries and whose ancestors might have been enemies of my ancestors and yet who are more like me than my next door neighbor who might share things like decade of birth, language, school district, and ethnicity.

Assimilation into the majority is not the aim either. Just as you should build your own character, you should also build your own circle of friends -- your own community -- based on things that are truly of value to you.

The majority that still hasn't proven itself to be capable of looking out for the good of the minority? Why do you think this would all of a sudden change if we got rid of the Civil Rights Act?
It is not anybody's role to look out for other's. Of course people can be irrational and prejudiced. Irrationality will hurt the person. For instance, if someone irrationally hires only people of his own skin-color, he will lose out by his injustice. Of course the person not hired loses out too, but he has no right to force himself on the irrational person either.

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So what you're proposing is that, if I do happen to be one of those lucky minorities who is able to get into an upper level university without the assisstance of the system we have now, that I should forget my community/family/culture I left behind and assimilate into the majority?
No. Lemme pretend that you're black, just for rhetorical purposes -- it doesn't matter if you're green or Bahai. I'm saying that the self-destructive hip-hop busta cap in that snitch-bitch ho' "culture" that has captivated the minds of young blacks is the problem. Even those jerkweasels Muhammad X and Louis Farrakhan understand that fact. Dump the "culture" as fast as you possibly can. Rather than beg for special treatment so that you can get a special place in the university and then fail, work on the intellectual skills that you need to earn the position and they succeed. Or are you proposing that the graduation standards for black males be lowered to minimum GPA of 1.8 to overcome the appallingly low 35% graduation rate, so as to manufacture more "successes"? At some point, the student has to take responsibility for his life, and stop hiding behind the excuse of not having all of the "advantages". At some point, people actually have to take control over their lives and realize, things are not always utterly perfect and you actually have to act to overcome diversity.

As SN said, it's a matter of values and priorities. What's more important, hangin' with the homies just doin' nothing, or showing off your pistol and maybe not getting shot this time -- or reading The Illiad, in the original. At some point, a man has to take responsibility for his life, and stop blaming everybody else.

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You can't change someone's *mind* by pointing a gun at them, and real change only comes about by people changing their minds. On that front, however, there's hope: take a look at just how fast the abolitionist movement took hold. Did the Civil War end racism? No, in fact, in many cases it probably made it worse, especially with how the Reconstruction was carried out. Did the Civil Rights Movement end racism? No, it institutionalized it.

If you think there's no chance for "the black man" in America, move to freakin' Africa. No one is stopping you. Maybe then you'll realize that America is one of the few places where there's a chance for ANYONE and quit your bitching.

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So what you're proposing is that, if I do happen to be one of those lucky minorities

Do you realize how insulting this is to those minority people who worked hard and EARNED a place in their school or job of their choosing? As SN said, why must you assume that luck is involved instead of honest hard work, self-respect and self-responsibility?

The majority that still hasn't proven itself to be capable of looking out for the good of the minority?

You seem to assume it is the responsibility of the majority to "look out for" the minority rather than assuming each individual is responsbile for taking care of himself.

I ask you, and I'm not being mean, are you so incompetent that you need someone else to take care of you? Do you need someone to give you things that you have not earned in order to have a life you think you deserve? Do you deserve a life to be provided to you at other people's expense?

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There isn't any use trying to convince this guy. Victimhood has become an issue of identity instead of a serious problem that needs to be solved.

There are two diametrically opposed strings of black leaders in the United States. One began with WEB Dubois and the other began with Booker T. Washington. We see the path and leader (Dubois and his NAACP) blacks choose and we see where it has ended. What now needs to be done is to go back and study Washington and follow his advice instead.

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