Drunk Objectivists

[athena glaukopis]

I know that there are a handful of drug-related posts on this forum, about whether or not taking drugs (including alcohol) is moral or not.

That's not my question, specifically.

I suppose my question spurs from my surprise in finding that many Oists are drinkers, and many of them go further than just a nice glass of BV. They get shtinkin' drunk.

My question is, how do you Oist drinkers out there morally justify your drunkenness? Or do you see it as immoral, but treat yourself to irrational behavior every once in a while?

I know, from the chat, that many of you got plastered over New Years. Why?

[Steve O]

Do drink occasionally, I admit. Do it to relax, mainly, although I drink more in large social gatherings to combat the social phobias that I have.

This is due to not being strong enough yet to do things I want consistently sober. If my emotions were stronger, I would be able to handle things without the alcohol, as they should not be necessary. But right now, the crutch comes in handy, and I do look at it as a "treat" I guess (well put!).

[Maarten]

Do drink occasionally, I admit. Do it to relax, mainly, although I drink more in large social gatherings to combat the social phobias that I have.

This is due to not being strong enough yet to do things I want consistently sober. If my emotions were stronger, I would be able to handle things without the alcohol, as they should not be necessary. But right now, the crutch comes in handy, and I do look at it as a "treat" I guess (well put!).

But this is exactly why you shouldn't use alcohol to "overcome" those phobias; all it does is increase the risk of becoming dependent upon the stuff. I mean, if you can only do something because you were fairly inebriated, then it stands to reason that you'll need to drink every time to keep up that behavior, or to make sure that people still see you in that same light. Faking social aptitude like that is just another form of trying to gain some value by pretending to be something you're not.

[Superluminal]

I probably drink more than most Objectivists based on what I have read in this forum. I enjoy the effects alcohol has on my level of aggression. I am very aggressive in most of my endeavours from conversations to training, and at the end of the day I have NO off switch. A drink tends to help calm me down without picking up a nasty pharm addiction. Social drinking can be an awful lot of fun with the right people and is a real mood enhancer. I have not felt an ounce of guilt about my drinking and do not think any one who does not abuse it should either.

[athena glaukopis]

I suppose I'm more curious about alcohol because its a depresssant -- it slows the activity of the central nervous system. In small amounts, it has some effects of stimulants but that is because it suppresses activity in the part of the brain that inhibits impulsive behaviour, such as loud laughter.

Caffeine, weed, tobacco (and yuckies like meth and coke) are stimulants, which speed up the central nervous system. I can see how objectivists would be more interested in over-stimulating parts of themselves in a way that they cant do sober. but slow and retard your responses? that makes less sense to me.

Edited January 3, 2008 by athena glaukopis

[DavidOdden]

I suppose my question spurs from my surprise in finding that many Oists are drinkers, and many of them go further than just a nice glass of BV. They get shtinkin' drunk.

I assume you mean the wine BV, not the other thing. And I assume you're asking about people who get shtinkin' drunk multiple times. Speech-slurringly, eye-crossingly, screamingly, staggeringly disabled. Has anybody here really, actually done that more than a half dozen times in their lives? Not just "over the .05 level", but hammered flat.

[Superluminal]

I am always jumping from idea to idea in my mind, making the connections actually gear me up to levels that I do not not find enjoyable. I agree that it it not always pleasant to slow down your nervous center, but there are times when I find it impossible to slow it down to a relaxing level. Alcohol aids in this function, and I prefer a beer or a martini to xanex. I am still fully capable of dealing with any abstractions I need to handle after a couple of drinks. I would never endorse becoming so intoxicated one cannot function.

[Shinja]

Strictly speaking Objectivists, as people who value and consistently practice the virtue of Rationality do not get stinking drunk. Students of Oism may consume excess alcohol for bad reasons, I was one of them, but hopefully they view it as unacceptable and are working on phasing it out. After all, it's counter-productive for most people to view 'thou shalt not consume alcohol' as a moral commandment because it can hinder self-acceptance and lead to self-repression.

[Superluminal]

Just out of curiosty what level of consumption should one find acceptable?

[LutherSetzer]

The idea of drinking to release inhibitions has never appealed to me. I need to inhibit my animal desires already! I admit I like an occasional pina colada or rum and coke just to enjoy the taste of the alcohol, but I have never had more than the equivalent of two glasses of red wine in one night. New Zealand Sense Of Life Objectivists (SOLO) founder Lindsay Perigo will of course extol the virtues of drinking as will many of his fellow SOLO members. I noticed much more drinking at the SOLO conference some years ago than I ever expected although I never saw any of them get smashed. So I can only comment from inexperience rather than experience. They were shocked when I told them I had never been drunk and tried to get me to drink just to experience it, but I declined. In retrospect, maybe I should have named some sexual position I had never tried and solicited the ladies there egging me into trying drinking just to see if they would offer their "services." That would have put things into perspective (about nagging people to try something after they have said "no") and shut their mouths in a hurry!

Edited January 3, 2008 by LutherSetzer

[athena glaukopis]

Strictly speaking Objectivists, as people who value and consistently practice the virtue of Rationality do not get stinking drunk. Students of Oism may consume excess alcohol for bad reasons, I was one of them, but hopefully they view it as unacceptable and are working on phasing it out. After all, it's counter-productive for most people to view 'thou shalt not consume alcohol' as a moral commandment because it can hinder self-acceptance and lead to self-repression.

what a very concise and well expressed response.

[DavidOdden]

Just out of curiosty what level of consumption should one find acceptable?

Until you're better off not consuming any more. I don't think anyone is ever better off getting so drunk that they can't stand up. With a nice glass of tempranillo most people are probably better off than with none (but some people would be worse off); and for most people (perhaps "almost all"), you'd be better off with less than two nice bottles. I'm better off with 1 to 3 glasses, but that may not apply to everybody.

[DragonMaci]

I can handle my alcohol well, but I don't let myself get arogant because of that. I make sure to constantly monitor my consumption, my mental state, and my physical state. As soon as there is even a hint of me being overly effected I stop drinking. On top of that I drink very slowly so as to minimise the effect of the alcohol.

[intellectualammo]

Strictly speaking Objectivists, as people who value and consistently practice the virtue of Rationality do not get stinking drunk. Students of Oism may consume excess alcohol for bad reasons, I was one of them, but hopefully they view it as unacceptable and are working on phasing it out.

This thread interests me, since only last year had I started drinking alcoholic beverages, and I'm 28. I do not drink socially, and decline any invitations to do so, I only drank alone. I never started drinking until I was reading a whole bunch of Atwood novel's in which characters drank Scotch. After a novel or to, I said why not try it, and drink with the characters. So I did. Then I tried wine. Then came the vodka. That's when I started to drink in excess. Alcoholism in my family, was always a concern to me, and a major deterrent, among other more important reasons. I thought I'd be able to do it in moderation. I soon learned quickly, that is impossible with me. It's either-or. Just like with smoking. As much as I enjoy the taste of wine, beer, vodka...I stay completely away from them. Anything that is going to impair my ability to get behind the wheel of my pen, and steer my thoughts safely between the lines of a page, is something that I must stay away from. If moderation doesn't work, abstinence always has with me. And it has so far in this. I'm not sure if I had crossed whatever line that's between experimentation and alcoholism, but you won't find me on either side of that line now.

[JMeganSnow]

The most drunk I've *ever* been was when I got a bottle of champagne to share with friends for New Year's and ended up finishing the bottle myself because my friends don't drink champagne. Twits. As far as I could tell, it was about equivalent to staying up all night. I was a teensy bit giggly and my cheeks got red, but I had no appreciable "buzz" and I spent the night beating the pants off the computer at twitch video games, so it didn't slow down my reflexes any.

My rating is this: if I don't feel comfortable driving after having a drink, it's too much. Granted, I have a lot of body mass and my metabolism handles alcohol well, so this is probably more than most people. (I doubt most people can polish off a bottle of wine or champagne and not even feel buzzed.)

Who are these Objectivists that like to get shtinkin' drunk, anyway? I don't know any, personally.

Edited January 4, 2008 by JMeganSnow

[lex_aver]

I suppose my question spurs from my surprise in finding that many Oists are drinkers, and many of them go further than just a nice glass of BV. They get shtinkin' drunk.

I was exaggerating!

[athena glaukopis]

I was exaggerating!

I didn't name anyone. Regardless, you were not the only one to have gone drinking for new years.

[A.West]

I don't understand drinking in general. I haven't found a drink that actually tastes good. For me, a "good wine" is one that tastes less unpleasant than usual. There are some nice-tasting mixed drinks and cocktails, but would taste just as good or better without the alcohol. And beer combines bitterness with the smells of fermentation. More importantly, I don't like the way alcohol makes me feel, even after a drink or two - namely, less in control of my own mind, and with dulled perception and clarity. So, yes, the attraction of drinking (not just by Objectivists but in general) is simply foreign to me.

My vice is junk food - perhaps some are attracted to a drink like I am to a dish of ice cream.

[athena glaukopis]

My vice is junk food - perhaps some are attracted to a drink like I am to a dish of ice cream.

Boy, can I relate to that! *hides mint chocolate chip ice cream cone*

If only I were addicted to going to the gym!

[adrock3215]

I can't speak for all Objectivists, as I do not know their drinking habits. I have never drank any alcoholic beverage in my life. My wife likes to drink wine and such on special occassions and she does. But I haven't ever consumed alcohol.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with drinking every once in a while. But there is something wrong with those who drink often with the express goal of getting drunk. Those who did this always appeared to me to be making the statement, "I have nothing productive to do." My response is, "If you have that much free time, then you need to reevaluate your goals and whether or not you are properly working towards them."

[D'kian]

I don't understand drinking in general. I haven't found a drink that actually tastes good.

It's an acquired taste. I know that sounds strange, but most people dont like coffee when they frist try it either.

And beer combines bitterness with the smells of fermentation.

Beer is nasty. I suppose it sells mostly because it's cheap.

More importantly, I don't like the way alcohol makes me feel, even after a drink or two - namely, less in control of my own mind, and with dulled perception and clarity.

That's reason enough. Do keep in ind that not everyone is affected the same way or with the same amount. I find a few drinks relaxing, say two or three, sometimes four. At some times they're also conducive to a more restful sleep (it depends). After a very stressful day I like to have a small black russian.

I don't drink very often, maybe not even once a month (I don't count a glass of wine with a meal as drinking, though, as it has no effect on me at all), hardly ever on weekdays and never when I expect to drive. I've been drunk twice in my life. Once when I was 16, and again when I was 18. That was over 20 years ago. I don't recall much about it, which by itself is a great argument not to do it, but I do remember the hang-over the following day, which is an even better reason not to get drunk again.

[KendallJ]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with drinking every once in a while. But there is something wrong with those who drink often with the express goal of getting drunk. Those who did this always appeared to me to be making the statement, "I have nothing productive to do." My response is, "If you have that much free time, then you need to reevaluate your goals and whether or not you are properly working towards them."

This would be my take as well. Regular drink is fine, but not to excess. A psychology that needs to get drunk as a common occurrence is dealing with some other issues. I find that those who eschew all drink as a matter of "rationality" are I think taking things a bit too far. If you don't like it, great, but recognize that there can be value to it in the proper context. There is nothing intrinsically anti-life about alcohol.

That said, I recognize too that "kicking vices" (be it food, drink, etc.) is not a straightforward action even once such a thing is consciously identified. There are many behavioral reinforcemers in any action that are unique to the context of the individual and are not straight forward to remove. The first step however is recognizing the fact and then doing something about it. My particular vice is food as well, mostly the product of depression era parents and granparents that taught me to "clean my plate", and positively reinforced it.

Beer is nasty. I suppose it sells mostly because it's cheap.

Well someone I know says that it's an acquired taste.

Seriously, a good glass of Guiness or Bass or wine with dinner or a nice light lager with sushi is tremendous.

Edited January 4, 2008 by KendallJ

[dan_edge]

Hello All,

I agree with West and Kendall. Occasional drinking is fine, but there is something wrong with one who customarily consumes alcohol for the express purpose of getting intoxicated. One major problem is that drugs and alcohol can grow to replace other values and hobbies in one's life. (Incidentally, I believe there is no significant difference between alcohol and other recreational drugs in this regard.) If all you need to feel good is to consume a substance, then it can sap one's motivation to seek pleasure from other, more productive sources.

Also, just as with smoking, drug and alcohol use is extremely psychologically addictive. One may not acknowledge that he has a problem until his life starts to go downhill. Even if drug use doesn't totally destroy one's life, it can stunt his development as a human being. Imagine the difference in character that would result from two men who lead very similar lives, except that one goes out Swing Dancing once a week, while the other gets trashed on vodka once a week. The latter's life would fall apart very quickly.

Heavy alcohol use can, and often does, lead to using more serious and addictive substances. Many people are introduced to the "harder" drugs for the first time while they are drunk, when their judgment is warped. Besides, what in principle is the difference between drinking liquor to get high and using cocaine for the same purpose? There is none. If the former is a justifiable form of recreation, then so is the latter.

I will strongly discourage my children from using any drugs of any kind (including alcohol).

--Dan Edge

Edited January 4, 2008 by dan_edge

[D'kian]

Well someone I know says that it's an acquired taste.

I'm sure it is. I'm also sure acquiring it is in poor taste

[D'kian]

(Incidentally, I believe there is no significant difference between alcohol and other recreational drugs in this regard.)

There is one significant difference. Most other drugs get you high in one shot, alcohol is incremental. That's a very big difference. Compare a man who has wine or beer every day with someone who has heroine or cocaine every day and you'll see it.

A more subtle difference is that alcohol is pleasant even when it does not have any intoxicating effects. You can enjoy a glass of wine, or a screwdriver, or a piña colada, for its taste, texture, aroma, etc without feeling any effects. That's more like enjoying a good steak or a salad than shooting heroine or popping ecstasy.