Marty McFly Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 What is freedom? some people will say freedom is democracy. is it really? Democracy means that the people get to vote on who will lead them and what laws should be made. Last night Bob Grant (my favorite talk show host and a legend) said on the radio that some scottish history professor by the name of Alexander Tyler said, in the 18th century,about the Athnian Republic: "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship." weather its true that he actually said that or not (the internet is not always the best source of factual information and Bob Grant got it from there) it does make sense. he also said something about democracy lasting around 200 years (which pretty much scares me) with Obama running for president and doing so well because of promises he makes to different groups and America being the ripe old age of 232 years, I am left wondering..... Will America collapse over loose fiscal policy, or is America not ONLY democracy but also a constitutional leadership (where the people cant "just vote" any law they want - it has to be "constitutional"? or is true freedom really Capitalism like that person on youtube said in a great documrntry called "the wealth of nations" (unfortunately it does not exist in youtube anymore:( i looked) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 What is freedom?The state of being free. I presume you know that.some people will say freedom is democracy.Some people are ignorant asses: I presume you know better.is it really?Obviously not. My one objection here is granting even the smallest shred of respectability and credibility to an obvious falsehood. I urge people to not even consider the possibility of contradiction -- never wonder rhetorically "Is a falsehood true?". Instead, go directly the the correct conclusion "This is a falsehood; here is why". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinDW78 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) America is NOT a democracy. The word "democracy" appears NOWHERE in the Constitution. When you pledge allegience, it is to the "republic" for which it stands. The founding fathers were very skeptical and untrusting of democracy. Edited July 24, 2008 by KevinDW78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'kian Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Freedom in this context refers to political freedom. That means existing without any kind of coercion or compulsion. Democracy as derived from Greek means "rule by the people," or "people rule." In practice it has always meant unlimited majority rule. America is a representative republic. Meaning it is ruled by people elected by majority vote. Those who rule are supposed to be limited by the Constitution and the law. In practice we know that hasn't worked out quite that well. In practice America today is a representative democracy. People elect a president and a congress by majority vote, and whatever the congress decides by an internal majority vote mostly goes. The Supreme Court should serve as a check to congress, as does the president, but that's often not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotan Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Great topic, Marty McFly! "Democracy" is majority rule. "Freedom" is individual liberty. Hence, in politics, democracy is nothing. But freedom is everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty McFly Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 The state of being free. I presume you know that.Some people are ignorant asses: I presume you know better.Obviously not. My one objection here is granting even the smallest shred of respectability and credibility to an obvious falsehood. I urge people to not even consider the possibility of contradiction -- never wonder rhetorically "Is a falsehood true?". Instead, go directly the the correct conclusion "This is a falsehood; here is why". OK ok ok ok America is NOT a democracy. The word "democracy" appears NOWHERE in the Constitution. When you pledge allegience, it is to the "republic" for which it stands. The founding fathers were very skeptical and untrusting of democracy. so how come as a kid I learned in school "America is a democracy therefore it's a free country" ? my teachers mislead me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01503 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. I think John Adams may have also said something of that nature in a letter to John Taylor (April 15th, 1814). Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It happens when people realize, not only that they can vote in unearned rewards, but that they can get them by harping on the strings of guilt, or by claiming that they have a 'right' to it. so how come as a kid I learned in school "America is a democracy therefore it's a free country" ? my teachers mislead me! Lol they sure said a lot of Bull. Hell, I'm still in High School. When summer's over, I should start a thread posting the especially ridiculous things they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrock3215 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) The whole "America is a democracy" bit seems to have sprung up around the turn of the 20th century, namely during the Progressive Era. After Wilson embarked on his democracy-around-the-world quest, it may have just stuck. Incidentally, Dr. Brook was just on the Thom Hartmann program discussing this exact subject. You can find the program here under the aptly titled "Capitalism vs. Democracy" link. Edited July 24, 2008 by adrock3215 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinDW78 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) so how come as a kid I learned in school "America is a democracy therefore it's a free country" ? my teachers mislead me! lol yes! Did you ever once hear the phrase, "everybody's a winner" lol When summer's over, I should start a thread posting the especially ridiculous things they say. I would really enjoy that. I myself have been posting threads this past summer semester of the absurdity I encounter in my college philosophy courses. Edited July 24, 2008 by KevinDW78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrocktor Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 America has wlefare, eminent domain, compulsory schooling. At what point can it be said that America has become a democracy? Individual rights are being violated via majority rule as we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty McFly Posted July 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 I grew up thinking that we are democracy. I swallowed all the crap I was taught Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFreeOrDie Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 Democracy and freedom are definitely two completely separate concepts. You can have either without the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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