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ST1DinOH

Going on strike if Obama wins

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This is not the first time you have said this. It is simply not factual.

The thing is that they are both utter pragmatists in the worst possible way. Whatever they say means nothing, because neither one acts on principle. There is no point to looking or listening to anything either one has to say, because rest assured he is saying it for some "practical" reasons. The guiding force in the lives of both McCain and Obama is "do whatever works", and there will be little difference between the two administrations.

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I'd like to highlight a good point: If you hate Obama you can do him more harm by starting your business and earning $250,000 because only a small percentage of that will be taken away in tax whereas you could donate upwards of $200,000 per year to pro-liberty groups. Logically the government would lose more than it gains, and you would also gain more than you lose in terms of money, purpose and happiness. Problem solved! ;)

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This is not the first time you have said this. It is simply not factual.
In terms of socialism, there is no fundamental difference between Obama and McCain.

I say, cut this guy a break. He might be more heat sensitive then us, but he's not delusional when he says that we're in the pot that's heating up.
That's not why we consider him delusional. He thinks taking government assistance in response one socialist makes him a d'Anconia and that happily paying taxes to a different socialist is rational.

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Are we so threatened by one man's (strongly-held) opinion that we can no longer stand to have him in our midst? What does that make us?

I agree. I haven't seen anything that warrants banning. A caustic attitude and mistaken viewpoint shouldn't be anything new on this forum.

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A caustic attitude and mistaken viewpoint shouldn't be anything new on this forum.
Do you consider a caustic attitude and a mistaken viewpoint to be virtues? Should caustic attitudes and mistaken viewpoints be common, and encouraged? How about using reason -- is that important, is that in some way relevant to Objectivism?

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I agree. I haven't seen anything that warrants banning. A caustic attitude and mistaken viewpoint shouldn't be anything new on this forum.

You guys forgot the part where he was abusive to some forum members. I don't think it's his opinions at issue so much as his tone and behavior.

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You guys forgot the part where he was abusive to some forum members. I don't think it's his opinions at issue so much as his tone and behavior.

Yeah, that's what did it for me.

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Do you consider a caustic attitude and a mistaken viewpoint to be virtues? Should caustic attitudes and mistaken viewpoints be common, and encouraged? How about using reason -- is that important, is that in some way relevant to Objectivism?

Here's a question for you Mr. Odden: do you think being snide is a virtue?

Where in my post did I imply that being caustic and mistaken were virtues? Do you really think that I'm unaware of the role of reason in Man's life after four years of posting here? Or were you just trying to provoke me? Because as far as I can tell, your "reply" to me has no content and no class.

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This is a privately owned forum. If the owner doesn't want people like this guy in here name calling, being disruptive and unproductive, it's his choice whether or not to ban him (or to place trust in his moderators/admins to ban him.) Some of you act as though others are trying to have the guy arrested in a public square. :)

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You guys forgot the part where he was abusive to some forum members. I don't think it's his opinions at issue so much as his tone and behavior.

His tone and behavior is at fault, yes. He should be warned by the moderators. He should be banned if he continues with it after warnings. He is, however, a new member who didn't start out here to troll. I'm not saying he's right. I'm just saying that I disagree with the call for outright banning without giving him a chance. If he's already been warned (I'm not a mod so I don't know) and he's continuing with his tone then I retract my earlier defense. I just don't like mob rule -- and that's what I saw as member after member posted for him to be banned. That's not their decision -- that's why we have moderators here.

I should also add that if we're going strictly by tone and behavior, I've seen more established members -- with less excuse -- get away with similar tones without repercussions. It's a problem the internet breeds -- but that doesn't make it right. Is being civil too much to ask for here?

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Are we so threatened by one man's (strongly-held) opinion that we can no longer stand to have him in our midst? What does that make us?

Which "we" are you speaking for? Are you sure you are operating on the correct premise here?

I just don't like mob rule -- and that's what I saw as member after member posted for him to be banned. That's not their decision -- that's why we have moderators here.

There is no mob rule here. Moderators may consider the input of the populace, but ultimately we make these decisions based on our own reasoning and consultation.

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Which "we" are you speaking for? Are you sure you are operating on the correct premise here?

I'm not speaking "for" anyone. I'm asking a rhetorical question. You can decide for yourself if it applies to you.

Which premise are you referring to?

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Which premise are you referring to?

The premise that people wanted him gone solely because he has 'strongly held' opinions. I think folks saw something else in his posting.

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The premise that people wanted him gone solely because he has 'strongly held' opinions. I think folks saw something else in his posting.

Well, then I suppose they should state what that "something else" is, as a reason for his bannination, so that the less perceptive amongst us might also be appropriately informed. I pretty much saw a guy with a viewpoint who was under attack, and used some colorful language (nothing scary, really) to try and make his point.

I also saw some make assumptions about others. This is almost always bad policy, no matter who does the assuming.

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I also saw some make assumptions about others. This is almost always bad policy, no matter who does the assuming.

Agreed. Calling him a "right-wing religious nutjob" was out of hand and is a form of collectivism- He is voting for McCain. Right-wing religious nutjobs are voting for McCain. Therefore he must be a right-wing religious nutjob.

If someone is going to use reasoning like this, they cant call themselves an Objectivist.

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I pretty much saw a guy with a viewpoint who was under attack, and used some colorful language (nothing scary, really) to try and make his point.

Let me offer this perspective;

The forum is like someone's house to many people here. Many of these people have been here a long time. Over that long time they have established that they have something of value to offer the forum. That is why sometimes longer standing members of the forum are given a little leeway in their approach to people. You may or may not agree that that is appropriate. Yes, it would be 'nice' to enforce the rules without respect to longevity, but it is understandable that people who have been here longer probably value the forum greater than a guy just walking in the door. They have invested a lot here. When something happens to apparently 'threaten' that value, perhaps they react in a stronger manner than they should.

Contrast this with the guy who just walked in the door. He hasn't 'earned' his way into the house yet. And if he comes in tracking dog mess all over the place, whether intellectually or behaviorally, I suspect those with investment here are not going to appreciate that a whole lot. That new guy may even have to take one or two on the chin and then demonstrate that he's still capable of civility. Chances are, the new guy just walking in doesn't value this place very highly yet. He probably hasn't look around a great deal to see the typical quality of discourse.

We get new members to the forum EVERY day. Lots of them. In some respects, the more the better. However, some people walk in, take a look around, introduce themselves, test the waters, read the rules, etc. etc. Others barge down the door and start screaming as soon as the walk in. Who do you think is likely to get the more immediate negative attention of the mods and the long-standing members?

You just don't walk into someone's house as the new guy and track garbage all over the place, even when you aren't greeted with the most open and loving arms. That means that sometimes the mods and admins have to act as 'bouncers' for the place. When nine people walk in very pleasantly and civilly, you don't let the tenth guy swing in on the rafters.

I suspect you may not agree with this approach or maybe not even agree that this assessment fits this picture, but as I said, I'm offering a perspective.

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His tone and behavior is at fault, yes. He should be warned by the moderators. He should be banned if he continues with it after warnings. He is, however, a new member who didn't start out here to troll. I'm not saying he's right. I'm just saying that I disagree with the call for outright banning without giving him a chance. If he's already been warned (I'm not a mod so I don't know) and he's continuing with his tone then I retract my earlier defense. I just don't like mob rule -- and that's what I saw as member after member posted for him to be banned.

Well, as the first guy who suggested a ban, what you saw was not mob rule in any sense. I don't see anything wrong with suggesting publically that someone is a troll, and trolls get banned. The general membership has no say in whether that happens or not, but certainly anyone can suggest it's ongoing. You assert he didn't start out here to troll, but I think that's still debatable. He was verbally abusive in ways that I've not seen from any regular member here. He received several thought out replies which didn't tone him down, in fact he escalated. That's troll behavior in my book.

As for his purpose...

this is my first post here (not counting a brief hello in the local forum), and i'd like to start things off by letting you all think i'm quite mad.

yeah, ok. I'm convinced.

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I'm not going to jump in and say this guy is tiring to stir up some trouble or that he is conscious that his position on the subject is wrong. I have encountered many people like him who see things going bad and adopt a "that'll show'em" attitude when trying to figure out what to do. Their problem (and its a growing one at that) is they don't think about what they read. I'd be willing to say this guy read the book but most likely thought it a great story about a train company instead of a deep philosophical novel dealing with real problems and how rational people deal with them. So many others I've encouraged to read Atlas Shrugged have come to the same solution that he did. That solution being "lets stop working, and will do what they do and not advance, that will show them!" not understanding why the men of the mind left in the first place. They didn't leave because of malice, hated, or because they thought this will really get them back. They left because they could no longer live in the word that was. They didn't stop working and just sit around and wait for some one to come in and give them a better life, they worked to the best of their abilities until Gult showed up and gave them a chance to live for themselves. I'm pretty sure that even Gult himself, when he was working as a greaser for the trains, was the best greaser they had on the line, even if he knew he didn't have to be.

In summation what I'm trying to say is, don't stop working because you think "they're not going to get me now that I've stop trying to be someone" because friend they already have you.

Edited by ThomasBradley

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Here's a question for you Mr. Odden: do you think being snide is a virtue?
I'm sorry, in re-reading my post I see how it might have seemed snide. That wasn't my intent. My intent was to emphasize the illogic and insulting nature of your statement. You present caustic attitude and mistaken viewpoint as though there should be considered ordinary, and furthermore as being something "typical" of this forum, when in fact these are unacceptable forms of behavior here. I should have been more explicit, so that you didn't misconstrue my statement as being snide. You are actively exemplifying the kind of evil that I seek to eliminate.
Where in my post did I imply that being caustic and mistaken were virtues?
In the quoted parts which I mentioned, by failing to say that caustic attitude and the repudiation of reason are the antithesis of Objectivist behavior.
Do you really think that I'm unaware of the role of reason in Man's life after four years of posting here?
Yes, I would conclude that from your recent conduct.

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