Penn and Teller

[The Anthem]

I've been watching a lot of Penn and Teller: Bullshit! lately. For those who don't know, Penn and Teller are two magicians, Penn does all of the speaking and Teller is silent. Their magic is good but their show, Bullshit! is dedicated to exposing and debunking certain ideas and pseudosciences, e.g. detoxing, alien abductions, gun laws, and recycling. Each show is very funny and very truthful.

It becomes quite clear by watching these that they are both very libertarian. However, not every issue is approached from a economic standpoint, sometimes they will attack ideas with morality (though not often enough). This made me think that they may possibly be Objectevists. Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: I was watching a Penn Says, a vlog Penn puts out, and he mentioned in passing that he is an "Ayn Rand guy."

Edited November 29, 2008 by The Anthem

[BlackInMind]

I've been watching a lot of Penn and Teller: Bullshit! lately. For those who don't know, Penn and Teller are two magicians, Penn does all of the speaking and Teller is silent. Their magic is good but their show, Bullshit! is dedicated to exposing and debunking certain ideas and pseudosciences, e.g. detoxing, alien abductions, gun laws, and recycling. Each show is very funny and very truthful.

It becomes quite clear by watching these that they are both very libertarian. However, not every issue is approached from a economic standpoint, sometimes they will attack ideas with morality (though not often enough). This made me think that they may possibly be Objectevists. Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: I was watching a Penn Says, a vlog Penn puts out, and he mentioned in passing that he is an "Ayn Rand guy."

Its funny you start this topic, I've become an avid viewer of this show myself, and of Penn's youtube vlog.

I've heard that Teller considers himself an Objectivist, and here's a clip of Penn from an interview with Glenn Beck where he says he "thinks he believes Objectivism" (paraphrasing, it at the end of the clip).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N9v21mdfiE

Edited November 29, 2008 by BlackInMind

[Jake_Ellison]

He's clearly familiar with not only Ayn Rand's fiction, but probably OPAR as well (I even heard him talk about DIM theory), and I never once heard him explicitly contradict any of Rand's basic principles. He also speaks out against skepticism, even though he has a lot of skeptic friends apparently.

I do check out Penn Says, and he just recently mentioned Objectivist epistemology as the only valid answer against mysticism ("Atheist Quakers" video). That's of course how any rational human being would feel, if they were familiar with Ayn Rand, but still, I think that makes Penn an Objectivist, for all intents and purposes. I also heard him say that Teller is even more outspoken (hehe) against religion and weird belief systems than he is.

In Bullshit however he never takes an explicit Objectivist position, but that might have to do more with Showtime. Quite frankly I wouldn't want someone explaining philosophy too much either on my network, in a comedy show designed to produce ratings. I watch it because it's funny.

[themadkat]

I LOVE this show.

I've been watching a lot of Penn and Teller: Bullshit! lately. For those who don't know, Penn and Teller are two magicians, Penn does all of the speaking and Teller is silent. Their magic is good but their show, Bullshit! is dedicated to exposing and debunking certain ideas and pseudosciences, e.g. detoxing, alien abductions, gun laws, and recycling. Each show is very funny and very truthful.

It becomes quite clear by watching these that they are both very libertarian. However, not every issue is approached from a economic standpoint, sometimes they will attack ideas with morality (though not often enough). This made me think that they may possibly be Objectevists. Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: I was watching a Penn Says, a vlog Penn puts out, and he mentioned in passing that he is an "Ayn Rand guy."

[TheEgoist]

Teller seems to be pretty deep into some Objectivist communities. When he speaks, you can almost hear the intelligence in his voice and it is really nice to know there are people out there who really get it that you might not suspect.

Penn, however, seems to be a mixed bag. I remember on a show he once said "Ethics are subjective" (The PETA episode, season 3? I believe.) However, as someone previously pointed out, he has given Objectivism plugs on shows like Glenn Beck before.

[Sir Andrew]

The only one I've really seen is the one about Environmentalism.

But I do know Penn is pretty thoughtful, I saw his video about the troops and CD thing

[JMartins]

I do know that he's a fellow at the Cato Institute, that he's spoken very favorably of anarcho-capitalism on the Glenn Beck Show, and that he supported Ron Paul and Bob Barr for President. He's a great guy though, and I love his show.

[KevinDW78]

Penn is great. I saw their show in Vegas last month and I was briefly talking to Penn after the show (yes, they do that) and I talked to him about Rand. (I gave him an oo.net shout-out) Basically he boiled it down to "Atlas Shrugged—what more is there to say?" He's enormous too lol.

[D'kian]

Penn is great. I saw their show in Vegas last month

Awesome show, isn't it? Are they still "burning" the flag? I saw them in May

and I was briefly talking to Penn after the show (yes, they do that)

Indeed. I like it when performers take time to meet with the audience. They also sign autographs.

Their TV show is quite good. I've seen maybe 20 eps all told (it's not broadcast at a convenient time).

The problem is Penn does all the talking and Teller does background tricks and comic relief. That's okay because that's been their act for years (even when they were on Babylon 5 playing Reebo and Zooty), but it feels as if all you're hearing is Penn's take on things. I assume they co-write their shows, so Teller does get an input.

I'd call the show's bent Libertarian, but also quite reasonable. While their style is full of showmanship and comedy, they are very much like John Stossel, another libertarian personality who has a reasonable approach to life. One thing they both do is illustrate their points with concrete demonstrations. That's a very valuable tool in the kind of reporting they do.

And of course their show is funny as hell.

[D'kian]

Yeah they still do the flag burning bit. I loved that.

It's one of their cleverest bits. I especially liked the "Chinese Bill of Rights"

Any notion on how the hell they do the magic bullets?

Oh, the time I saw them I caught some people near the exit arguing about their bit on psychics. That bit is more than entertaining, as Penn makes a rather strong case against pshychic readings and other such idiocies. I overheard one person telling his firends "I'm sure he dind't mean all psychics. Just the bad ones." Incredible.

[KevinDW78]

Any notion on how the hell they do the magic bullets?

There is a YouTube video you can lookup that exposes how it's done. (They have never revealed it themselves). I'll just say it has to do with prop placements

Edited November 29, 2008 by KevinDW78

[D'kian]

There is a YouTube video you can lookup that exposes how it's done. (They have never revealed it themselves).

Thanks. I'll look it up.

I'll just say it has to do with prop placements

Oh. No smoke and mirrors? I'm very disappointed

[Haemp]

Watching Bullshit was a great push for me into political and philosophical ideas. Such an awesome show.

In episode 6-09 they did a great job explaining how to best achieve wold peace. And here is a great

from the ground zero episode.

[Sarrisan]

I love how they're able to successfully combine serious ideas with showmanship and comedy, and end up making a pretty good case most of the time (Though, as libertarians, I sometimes disagree with their conclusions). Ultimately, it ends up that they are able to reach a much wider audience than if they simply went around the country lecturing (Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. Different contexts for different kinds of people).

[khaight]

I love how they're able to successfully combine serious ideas with showmanship and comedy, and end up making a pretty good case most of the time (Though, as libertarians, I sometimes disagree with their conclusions). Ultimately, it ends up that they are able to reach a much wider audience than if they simply went around the country lecturing (Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. Different contexts for different kinds of people).

It's worth noting that this is an aspect of cultural change. One of the ways ideas percolate through the culture is via the entertainment community. The ideas and values they hold influence what kinds of characters wind up in TV shows, the lyrics of popular songs and the targets of comedic mockery. Spreading a rational philosophy can't be done with nothing but Rand and Peikoff -- we also need Penn and Teller.

[JMeganSnow]

"And then there's THIS a**hole..."

Excuse me, but what the hell is this? Is that Mammon's avatar?

[Steve D'Ippolito]

I have been arguing that so long as movies perpetuate the stereotype of the evil businessman vs. the noble environmentalist/leftist/whatever, and the news filters in a way suitable to the left, we will not see cultural change no matter what happens in the universities.

[Jake_Ellison]

I have been arguing that so long as movies perpetuate the stereotype of the evil businessman vs. the noble environmentalist/leftist/whatever, and the news filters in a way suitable to the left, we will not see cultural change no matter what happens in the universities.

Well, yeah, but writers and media people ( I almost said journalists:) mostly come from universities, and the philosophy they read definitely comes from universities.

[Tenure]

The problem is Penn does all the talking and Teller does background tricks and comic relief. That's okay because that's been their act for years (even when they were on Babylon 5 playing Reebo and Zooty), but it feels as if all you're hearing is Penn's take on things. I assume they co-write their shows, so Teller does get an input.

If you take Powell's History for Adults course, you can hear Teller make comments every now and again on the recorded lectures, as well as read his stuff on the forum for the course (only accessible to members).

[D'kian]

If you take Powell's History for Adults course, you can hear Teller make comments every now and again on the recorded lectures, as well as read his stuff on the forum for the course (only accessible to members).

Thanks. But I'm afraid you misunderstood, or I wasn't clear. I meant that on the BS show the audience doesn't know what Teller thinks because he doesn't say anything. Obviously he agrees with Penn or he wouldn't do the supporting role, but he doesn't say so.

[JMeganSnow]

That's just their shtick--you don't get to hear what the other people involved in production think, either.

[Sarrisan]

If you take Powell's History for Adults course, you can hear Teller make comments every now and again on the recorded lectures, as well as read his stuff on the forum for the course (only accessible to members).

Teller takes Powells history course? Man, as if I needed another reason to start on that...

I hear my budget crying.

[JMartins]

Here's an interesting/entertaining videoblog by Penn Jillette, where he talks about a debate on atheism which he had with Sam Harris. He makes some great points, and should be less humble about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccfqpwfvYmw

Edited November 30, 2008 by JMartins

[Klytemnestra]

Well, in a way the Iron Man movie went against that. Tony Stark remains a businessman, though in the movie he goes from a hedonistic businessman to a conscious, responsible businessman, much more of a true capitalist than his business partner.

I have been arguing that so long as movies perpetuate the stereotype of the evil businessman vs. the noble environmentalist/leftist/whatever, and the news filters in a way suitable to the left, we will not see cultural change no matter what happens in the universities.

[Thales]

Here's an interesting/entertaining videoblog by Penn Jillette, where he talks about a debate on atheism which he had with Sam Harris. He makes some great points, and should be less humble about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccfqpwfvYmw

Interestingly, in Peikoff's latest podcast he says that he believes Obama is very religious. Stay tuned.