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Let us also not forget that our job as activists isn't as hard as some make it out to be. Ayn Rand was the one that had the hard job. She not only had to come out with an entirely new integrated system of philosophy (as contrast to those who philosophize in "mid-stream"), but she also had to present it at time when literally the entire world was against it, especially the ethics in particular. Those are the most difficult situations: One man against the world. But they have won before. Look at the first man that found out the earth was round and not flat.

Nowadays we are several thousand more Objectivists better off. One individual (Ayn Rand) can be quite an intellectual force alone, but we are even better off now as we have grown to the point we have our own intellectuals (The Ayn Rand Institute) and a media receptive enough to give them air time.

We still need but more time. I see nothing to fret over.

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Out of curiosity, what makes you say that Italy is the worst? I'm not familiar with it myself, but will be visiting there for the first time in September.

Well, let me rephrase that: the worse as far as I know. I've never been to many other countries in Europe (are you suggesting Greece might be worse, CF?), but in Italy the distinct odor of rabid nationalism and xenophobia on the so called right (they hate foreigners, they blame them for everything that's wrong with the country), clashing with leftist socialism and anti-semitism struck me as inescapable. But that is just my impression, not so much from the short time I've spent visiting tourist destinations and clubs, but from the stories I've heard from people who stayed there for a longer time. As such, it is not to be taken as a definitive verdict, just my half-baked opinion.

As for visiting, Rome is quite the experience. We didn't go to Venice, but I'm sure that's fun too. Or are you planning to spend your time on the beach?

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In my state, California...

Well there's a HUGE part of your problem and probably a HUGE part of the reason you have no hope. You need to get the hell out of that state, fast!

I'm not going anywhere. I ain't skeered.

Me either. My answer to the "Hope and Change" Obama and his cronies plan to force on us is guns, ammo and intellectual ammo. (Intellectual ammo being first, of course.) :P

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are you suggesting Greece might be worse, CF?

Not at all, I was just wondering why you thought Italy was the worst among all the little hellholes we have on this grand old continent. Rabid nationalism, socialism, and anti-Semitism are, unfortunately, not confined to Italy--although they may be worse there than elsewhere; I don't have enough experience with the country to tell. Germans only dare to be covertly anti-Semitic nowadays (even though their cover is often very transparent), but the very open anti-Americanism there was enough to make me sick.

But I think the worst place in Europe has to be somewhere in the more backward post-Communist states, simply because of the sheer amount of poverty--with Albania, Romania, and the Ukraine being among the top candidates. One of my former co-workers knew a truck driver who learned from experience never to make any kind of stop in Ukraine; he would not even visit the restroom until he reached the relative safety beyond the Russian border. Even while in motion, it was not unheard of for cars to pull up alongside trucks and siphon the fuel out of their tanks!

I'd definitely agree, though, that the more civilized of the former Soviet block countries, and Slovenia especially, can be better places to live in than many a nation in Western Europe. For what it's worth, I could hardly wait to come back to Hungary from England myself, and all Hungarian expats I knew there felt the same way. Over the past decade or so, we've gotten used to progress and development being the norm all around us (and to complaining about the progress being too slow!), so moving to England and suddenly being surrounded by an all-pervasive sense of decay and desolation can be quite a shock.

As for Greece, they made the news recently with some anarchist riots, but I wouldn't make too much of that. Like everywhere, the anarchists are a small minority, and the police usually deals with them with a tolerable amount of effectiveness. As far as economic opportunities and general liberty are concerned, I would put Greece neither in the top nor in the bottom league within Europe. For those wishing to pursue historical studies, Greece is a paradise, of course (but I have to warn you: they don't speak proper Greek these days!) :dough:

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I am surprised you didn't mention Belarus as a superlative Euro-hellhole. Is it actually better than I had heard?

Me either. My answer to the "Hope and Change" Obama and his cronies plan to force on us is guns, ammo and intellectual ammo. (Intellectual ammo being first, of course.)

Definitely been working on those. :dough:

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I am surprised you didn't mention Belarus as a superlative Euro-hellhole. Is it actually better than I had heard?

Probably not. I considered including it in the short list, but I wanted to keep it short, and I'd hardly ever heard anything about Belarus, so I left it out. But of course, hardly ever hearing about a nearby country is not a good omen.

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Is California that bad? I've been thinking about moving there, if I ever manage to get into the US.

When I left Southern California 20 years ago it was already bad. People were either completely disconnected from reality and into form over substance to an appalling degree (must be something to do with the entertainment industry), scam artists (or at the very least not giving much value for your money), or really struggling to make ends meet. It was ridiculously expensive to live there and I believe a lot of that was government costing too doggone much (meaning it was doing far more than it should be even by "modern" standards).

It has only gotten worse since I left; the state government's budget deficit is probably larger than many countries' economies (I haven't checked, but I'd really be surprised if it weren't).

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When I left Southern California 20 years ago it was already bad. People were either completely disconnected from reality and into form over substance to an appalling degree (must be something to do with the entertainment industry), scam artists (or at the very least not giving much value for your money), or really struggling to make ends meet. It was ridiculously expensive to live there and I believe a lot of that was government costing too doggone much (meaning it was doing far more than it should be even by "modern" standards).

It has only gotten worse since I left; the state government's budget deficit is probably larger than many countries' economies (I haven't checked, but I'd really be surprised if it weren't).

It's my understanding that my state has some of the highest, if not the highest, taxes in the nation (gas, sales, income, you name it), and the politicians here are claiming the state will become insolvent next month unless they raise even more taxes. And what do our taxes pay for, largely? State workers who refuse to take pay cuts or furloughs, while so many in the private sector are losing their jobs.

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When I left Southern California 20 years ago it was already bad. People were either completely disconnected from reality and into form over substance to an appalling degree (must be something to do with the entertainment industry), scam artists (or at the very least not giving much value for your money), or really struggling to make ends meet. It was ridiculously expensive to live there and I believe a lot of that was government costing too doggone much (meaning it was doing far more than it should be even by "modern" standards).

It has only gotten worse since I left; the state government's budget deficit is probably larger than many countries' economies (I haven't checked, but I'd really be surprised if it weren't).

That doesnt sound good at all. Perhaps I should start researching other sunny places in the US that are better than California(seriously, the sun and the entertainment industry would be my only reasons for looking at California). :dough:

It's my understanding that my state has some of the highest, if not the highest, taxes in the nation (gas, sales, income, you name it), and the politicians here are claiming the state will become insolvent next month unless they raise even more taxes. And what do our taxes pay for, largely? State workers who refuse to take pay cuts or furloughs, while so many in the private sector are losing their jobs.

Just out of curiosity, how high are the total taxes(income, sales, gas etc)?

Where I live, before I started studying, I paid about 65% in taxes on a fairly low income(sales, income and employers fee, for hiring me, included, not sure about gas though... I think the gas tax here is around 85%). It would be interesting to see how that compares to a state like California.

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That doesnt sound good at all. Perhaps I should start researching other sunny places in the US that are better than California(seriously, the sun and the entertainment industry would be my only reasons for looking at California). :D

Just out of curiosity, how high are the total taxes(income, sales, gas etc)?

Where I live, before I started studying, I paid about 65% in taxes on a fairly low income(sales, income and employers fee, for hiring me, included, not sure about gas though... I think the gas tax here is around 85%). It would be interesting to see how that compares to a state like California.

Maximum invidiual income tax rate: 9.3% (source: http://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/catxrate_exmpt07.shtml)

Gas tax: 67.1 cents per gallon (source: http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/up...esJan20092.pdf)

Sales tax: 7.25% (source: http://www.boe.ca.gov/news/sp111500att.htm)

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Taxes may be less there than they are where you are from, Alfa (65%?? Holy crud! Where do you live?!?) but they are substantially more than in other parts of the US, and that is driving business away. And that's before they raise em to cover the huge deficit.

California also regulates businesses to a degree greater than most places, in some cases those regulations were enacted by referendum (e.g., prop 65). (In other words the electorate was chowderheaded enough to inflict the regs by popular vote.)

Florida? Texas? (Sunny and humid) Arizona? (Sunny and dry.) Colorado gets lots of sunshine (300+ days per year), it just isn't always warm.

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Run along now Cheryl, I mean newboist. Just a few more steps to the edge of the pier.

I think this is an awful thing to write.

We rarely know very much about another person who makes a post, but clearly the opening post was made by someone who is interested in Objectivism but in some despair. You may not agree that the person has good reason for his despair, but this is a destructive response.

Perhaps you missed this:

…

Good for you. I have Asperger's syndrome and have never even left my county on my own, so I'm pretty much stuck where I am for the next few years. I don't think I would ever have the socializing capacity to go to another the country.

I do not know very much about Asperger’s syndrome, but it appears to be associated with depression and anxiety, which may be understandable if the person has difficulty in socializing.

I think we should value a person’s expression of constructive interest in Objectivism and if he is despairing of the struggle to succeed in life offer, we can offer some encouragement. If you do not, that is fine, but I cannot see any value in contemptuously suggesting such a person to suicide. The heroic character of Dagny in Atlas Shrugged did not express contempt for Cheryl and certainly did not suggest any such thing to Cheryl. On the contrary, sensing the danger, Dagny offered help.

Edited by Old Toad
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I am not suggesting someone to suicide.....he is, or did you miss the title of his post. I am merely stepping out of the way. A man running toward the pier and asking others why he shold not leap is a fraud. There were numerous attempts to help him all of which were met with rejection. This person is not looking for help. He is looking for pity.

Yes Dagny offered help, and Cheryl rejected it and ran off the pier anyways.

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I am not suggesting someone to suicide.....he is, or did you miss the title of his post. I am merely stepping out of the way. A man running toward the pier and asking others why he shold not leap is a fraud. There were numerous attempts to help him all of which were met with rejection. This person is not looking for help. He is looking for pity.

Yes Dagny offered help, and Cheryl rejected it and ran off the pier anyways.

Bad form, old bean. There is nothing in Objectivism that requires lack of compassion, simply that we do not allow ourselves to be ruled by it.

Edited by Maximus
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I am not suggesting someone to suicide.....he is, or did you miss the title of his post. I am merely stepping out of the way. A man running toward the pier and asking others why he shold not leap is a fraud. There were numerous attempts to help him all of which were met with rejection. This person is not looking for help. He is looking for pity.

Yes Dagny offered help, and Cheryl rejected it and ran off the pier anyways.

You're the one who introduced suicide into all this. No one else suggested it. The title of the topic asks for an assesment of the situation, and the future, not suggestions on what the author should do with his life. The man has a great profession I assume he loves, with plenty of opportunities open to him. He has nothing in common with Cheryl Taggart, and your words of "wisdom" most definitely have nothing in common with Dagny's.

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I am not suggesting someone to suicide.....he is, or did you miss the title of his post. I am merely stepping out of the way. A man running toward the pier and asking others why he shold not leap is a fraud. There were numerous attempts to help him all of which were met with rejection. This person is not looking for help. He is looking for pity.

Yes Dagny offered help, and Cheryl rejected it and ran off the pier anyways.

The plain language of the title of his post and the substance of his posts express depression, not suicide.

Perhaps the man is a fraud and looking for pity. Pity was not offered here.

Even if he suggested suicide, you were not "merely stepping out of the way." You were not in his way. You went out of your way to push.

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I think the feelings that NewbieOist is expressing are not all that uncommon for, well, newbie Oists. You discover a philosophy that in every way seems right only to notice that the whole of civilization is tripping over itself in a race in the opposite direction. To be honest, every time our new president opens his mouth, the words "we're doomed" run through my head. I dont advocate giving up, but I think we are in for a long night. And it might be that few, if any, of us will be around when the dawn finally breaks.

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The plain language of the title of his post and the substance of his posts express depression, not suicide.

Perhaps the man is a fraud and looking for pity. Pity was not offered here.

Even if he suggested suicide, you were not "merely stepping out of the way." You were not in his way. You went out of your way to push.

If he had said "I am doomed." I might agree with you. He said "We are doomed." Words have meaning. I did not go out of my way to push. I merely pointed out the truth. The pier is down the road. If he wishes to jump, its his choice (your claim that I am pushing him is an immoral attempt to transfer his volition, and the responsibility that comes with it, to me). I will not jump with him, nor ingnore the fact that he is arguing for hopelessness.

Fletch has the correct (in my opinion) assessment of the situation regarding our future. It is going to be very difficult ahead, and dead weight or attempts to convince us that it is pointless are not without consequences. There is going to be a point in our near future where decisions will have to be made on who is worth the effort of trying to save. Mistakes in this area will be devastating.

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Maximum invidiual income tax rate: 9.3% (source: http://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/catxrate_exmpt07.shtml)

Gas tax: 67.1 cents per gallon (source: http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/up...esJan20092.pdf)

Sales tax: 7.25% (source: http://www.boe.ca.gov/news/sp111500att.htm)

Sounds almost like paradise to me. ;)

Seriously, regarding the topic of this thread, I understand things are far from perfect over there, but even if they got alot worse(like where I live) it's still possible to live a good life. So, there's no reason for despair.

Taxes may be less there than they are where you are from, Alfa (65%?? Holy crud! Where do you live?!?) but they are substantially more than in other parts of the US, and that is driving business away. And that's before they raise em to cover the huge deficit.

California also regulates businesses to a degree greater than most places, in some cases those regulations were enacted by referendum (e.g., prop 65). (In other words the electorate was chowderheaded enough to inflict the regs by popular vote.)

Florida? Texas? (Sunny and humid) Arizona? (Sunny and dry.) Colorado gets lots of sunshine (300+ days per year), it just isn't always warm.

I live in sweden, where we have among the highest taxes in the world. Though 65% might have been a little too high, I think it should be just below 60%(the numbers vary a bit depending on where I look). And of course, it gets worse if you have a high income and own a house.

From what I understand California seems to have alot of environmentalist BS going on, and usually when such ideas get through it's just the tip of the iceberg.

I've thought about Florida, Texas and Arizona. Colorado seems too cold. But I guess the biggest challenge is to actually get in to the US, or allowed to stay there atleast.

Edited by Alfa
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It is going to be very difficult ahead, and dead weight or attempts to convince us that it is pointless are not without consequences. There is going to be a point in our near future where decisions will have to be made on who is worth the effort of trying to save. Mistakes in this area will be devastating.
I think this is bull.
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