Zip Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I don't intend to save anyone but myself. I am in league (so to speak) with several others who are doing the same. We are traveling the same path by our own volition for our own sakes. The fact that we are not alone is and added plus. If in the process of doing so my actions cause others to be saved as well, they will reap the benefit of my sound planning. I don't expect that you, or anyone else fo that matter, will or should come running to me for salvation, nor have I indicated such (although you have made presumptions about me that have caused you to infer it). I have sound reason to think that I will find myself in the company of others who also took it upon themselves to save themselves. I find these kind of people to be "my kinda guys. " And interestingly enough they seem to tolerate me as well. Maybe its because we make smarmy comments about each other all the time. As to the specifics of how... do you really think I would post them here? I would think from the above, that a person who believes that sound planning and preparation for the end (as we know it now) is the path to eventually rebuilding at least some part of the world in a rational fashion would encourage others to do the same, to direct their disgust at preparations for the resurgence of man, to gather more support and build a stronger base for his (and others) ideals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I would think from the above, that a person who believes that sound planning and preparation for the end (as we know it now) is the path to eventually rebuilding at least some part of the world in a rational fashion would encourage others to do the same, to direct their disgust at preparations for the resurgence of man, to gather more support and build a stronger base for his (and others) ideals. Yes, I choose to live in an urban area because being close to a large number of other people is valuable to me. In a crisis, I would do what is within my power to save family, friends and others because I value other individuals and I value living in a society as opposed to some sort of hellish Omega Man existence. My standard of living is increased by the actions and production of other people with whom I gladly trade value for value. The lone-survivalist mentality of certain people has never made much sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilicyote Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I would think from the above, that a person who believes that sound planning and preparation for the end (as we know it now) is the path to eventually rebuilding at least some part of the world in a rational fashion would encourage others to do the same, to direct their disgust at preparations for the resurgence of man, to gather more support and build a stronger base for his (and others) ideals. I agree. I ment that this thread was not the place, I had alread hijacked it too far away from the original poster's question. That was one of my errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD26 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Well, to some degree it would appear "irreparable" damage has already been done to the free market anyway. We've been a mixed market with welfare for a long time. We've gone through a number of depression/recessions in the past. However, I'm still of the opinion that it is way too premature to panic or give up. Things will almost certainly be worse if people just philosophically throw up their hands or kill themselves. Given the age of the United States, we have not been a mixed market with welfare for "a long" time. Not a majority of its history. Philosophically and actually, individuals have thrown their hands up in the continued drive down the path to more welfare, government altruism, and the like. If no one stands against it, the others that have no recognition of the immorality of the force will be part of the collective. My time here will be finite. I know that I will die at some point. I don't expect repair for something repairable. I have no reason to expect such immorality in the first place. I expect my freedom. Nor should I have to "wait" for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjavalen Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm curious, softwarenerd, on why you think secession per se would be bad, without regards to the reasons for secession. Would you regard it as immoral, for example, if the people of a certain state wished to establish a laissez-faire capitalist society and seceded from the union for that purpose? Not saying any state would do that currently, but your post seems to state that secession as such was not proper. Most definitely not. The U.S. got to where it is because people across the country, city after city, county after county, and state after state, have a certain political philosophy. Leave talk of secession to the right-wing kooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 ...your post seems to state that secession as such was not proper.I didn't mean to imply that. I said that the U.S. got to where it is because people across the country, city after city, county after county, and state after state, have a certain political philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Toad Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) If he had said "I am doomed." I might agree with you. He said "We are doomed." Words have meaning. You misquote the opening poster. I agree, words have meaning; you should read them and quote them more carefully. I did not go out of my way to push. I merely pointed out the truth. The pier is down the road. If he wishes to jump, its his choice (your claim that I am pushing him is an immoral attempt to transfer his volition, and the responsibility that comes with it, to me). I will not jump with him, nor ingnore the fact that he is arguing for hopelessness. Fletch has the correct (in my opinion) assessment of the situation regarding our future. It is going to be very difficult ahead, and dead weight or attempts to convince us that it is pointless are not without consequences. There is going to be a point in our near future where decisions will have to be made on who is worth the effort of trying to save. Mistakes in this area will be devastating. The opening post did not ask you to “jump with him” or to ignore what he wrote. Your response to the man’s despair was vicious because you are presumed to have volitional control over your own words, to know that man’s life is the standard of value, and to know that if another person is in despair, one should not encourage, suggest, or even “merely point” him to suicide. No person of good will would do such a thing. Edited February 2, 2009 by Old Toad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjavalen Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) I didn't mean to imply that. I said that the U.S. got to where it is because people across the country, city after city, county after county, and state after state, have a certain political philosophy. You said "Most certainly not," followed by that, in response to "Also, would any of you consider it positive if states did start to secede?" Then you said "leave talk of secession to right wing kooks." In that case, I have no idea what you were talking about in the post, or if that sentence in particular is anything but noise. Isn't it an obvious point that a country is where it is due to the political philosophy held by its citizens over the country's history? What does that have to do, then, with secession, if you are not making a case against secession per se? If everyone in, say, Illinois had a certain political philosophy contrary to the rest of the United States currently, say, Capitalism, would it be immoral for them to secede? I just do not understand the relevance of that particular sentence, if its not for supporting rejecting secession under any circumstances. If I'm missing something, please enlighten me. Edited February 2, 2009 by sanjavalen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 You said ...I answered in the context of the U.S. today, not a theoretically possible U.S. of the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjavalen Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I answered in the context of the U.S. today, not a theoretically possible U.S. of the future. Okay, that was not made clear to me in your original post. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieOist Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Why don't any of you Pollyannas read just the first few items in this blog (http://impendingcollapse.blogspot.com/) and then tell me there's still hope?! This is so horrible! How can any of you honestly believe we'll get through this?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Why don't any of you Pollyannas read just the first few items in this blog (http://impendingcollapse.blogspot.com/) and then tell me there's still hope?! This is so horrible! How can any of you honestly believe we'll get through this?!?! A great many of those items (the economic ones in particular) are not bad things, but necessary readjustments--those news items are nothing but floating abstractions given disaster standing by being all put together in one place. I'll grant you that some of them are very definitely bad signs, but all are correctable by people who have decided to adopt a better philosophy, and there are plenty of signs that Objectivism and Objectivist ideas are gaining more and more traction worldwide. If you want to give up, then give up, but some of us still have lives to live and a future to fight for. And, like Ayn Rand's characters, I have thought that it was a sin to just lie down and let your life go without at least making a try for it. The news is grim, but I can still speak and write and go to school and work and think and fight, so all is not yet lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 How can any of you honestly believe we'll get through this?!?! So you think you're just going to die when the country goes bankrupt or what? Quit freaking out. There are ways to prepare for hard times. There are ways to fight for what you believe. There are ways to defend yourself. Instead of dwelling on all the problems, why not focus on what you can do to help yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kainscalia Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Indeed. It would be a nice spot we would all be in right now if everybody had just given up during the Great Depression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieOist Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 So you think you're just going to die when the country goes bankrupt or what? Quit freaking out. There are ways to prepare for hard times. There are ways to fight for what you believe. There are ways to defend yourself. Instead of dwelling on all the problems, why not focus on what you can do to help yourself? Because there is no way to prepare for the collapse of civilization into total anarchy unless you've spent the last five or ten years living a survivalist lifestyle. Don't kid yourself. If you've been softened by modern society, you don't stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Then how in the hell has mankind survived at all on this planet? Do you think this is the first time a country/government has been faced with the problems we face now?! How do you think Rand knew this is exactly how it would happen? Get real! "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero - 55 BC I think I smell a troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieOist Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'm glad you'll be fine when the stores have no food and people are shooting at each other in the streets. I'm not a survivalist by nature, so I guess I deserve to perish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'm glad you'll be fine when the stores have no food and people are shooting at each other in the streets. I'm not a survivalist by nature, so I guess I deserve to perish. Pick up a history book. People have lived and thrived in conditions far worse than anything we've seen in this country for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebo Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'm glad you'll be fine when the stores have no food and people are shooting at each other in the streets. I'm not a survivalist by nature, so I guess I deserve to perish. If that is your attitude? Yes. Please just go lay down in the gutter now and die and save us the trouble of having to deal with you later while we use our minds to survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieOist Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Pick up a history book. People have lived and thrived in conditions far worse than anything we've seen in this country for many years. Do the history books say anything about people with mental illnesses who couldn't adjust to the new conditions? Everyone who's being rude to me obviously doesn't understand mental illness. "Tough it out. Stop crying. You'll be fine." I suffer enough from my condition just trying to live in normal society. There's no way I'd be able to adjust to a world gone mad. Well I'm glad you'll all be OK. I guess I'm just not well-formed enough for life. If that is your attitude? Yes. Please just go lay down in the gutter now and die and save us the trouble of having to deal with you later while we use our minds to survive. Fine, I'll do that. Goodbye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluey Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Do the history books say anything about people with mental illnesses who couldn't adjust to the new conditions? Everyone who's being rude to me obviously doesn't understand mental illness. "Tough it out. Stop crying. You'll be fine." I suffer enough from my condition just trying to live in normal society. There's no way I'd be able to adjust to a world gone mad. Well I'm glad you'll all be OK. I guess I'm just not well-formed enough for life. I'm glad you'll be fine when the stores have no food and people are shooting at each other in the streets. I'm not a survivalist by nature, so I guess I deserve to perish. Well, which is it? Are we all doomed because no modern human can gain the skills necessary for survival that everyone everywhere has managed to develop up until the last hundred years? Or are you specifically doomed because you either can't or won't acquire the skills to survive if your predictions come true (which is a lot less likely than you're making it out to be)? If it's the first then frankly I don't believe you, I think people (or at least I) would gain whatever skills they had to. And clearly they could since people just like them have met the same challenges (living in a pre-industrialized state) for thousands of years. And if it's the second then you need to stop panicking and figure out what exactly the issues are and what you can do about them. And if you just refuse to 'cause the big bad universe is picking on you and it isn't fair, then (at least on this board) you're going to be accused of being a troll and not really taken seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 For your information, I was robbed several years back and went through years of extreme depression for which I was medicated and counseled, so I know a little about mental issues. And you may very well be right...during hard times, if you are unable to grow or acquire your own food somehow, you may very well perish. Why freak out about it today? If there's nothing you can do about it, there's nothing you can do. In that case, I say enjoy every moment you have until that time comes. (And that may not even happen during your lifetime!) Hell, none of us knows when or how we're going to die. Why don't you find something to worry about that you can actually do something about? It will make you feel better to accomplish something. I also recommend you see a doctor and stop watching/reading the news for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjavalen Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you truly believe things are going to get as bad as you say they will, it would be prudent to prepare for such an eventuality. There is a large, thriving subculture of survivalists in the US. Some are kooks, some simply cautious and others do it for a fun hobby. There are a lot of people who have thought through how to survive all sorts of horrible things, from a severe natural disaster to a zombie apocalypse. Relax and begin to act, if you are honestly judging the facts to the best of your ability. If you are just having a panic attack get a hold of yourself, and reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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