TheEgoist Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09030601.html We should all be grateful that Christianity and the Catholic church have been subdued in the past 250 years, and that the worst that can happen is a rebuke from the church and excommunication. These people might find themselves in a holding cell in the 1300s if they were LUCKY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 From this "god" awful article... Declaring that "life must always be protected", a senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church's decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil. If "life must always be protected" then protecting the life of the 9 year-old was the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utabintarbo Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 From this "god" awful article... If "life must always be protected" then protecting the life of the 9 year-old was the right thing to do. "Innocent" life must be protected. Obviously, the 9-yr.-old brought the rape and pregnancy upon herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgoist Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 You say that in jest, but really, that is what they believe. She is a human being. She has been born and is therefore already guilty. She is guilty of being a human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious". So, incestuous pedophile rapist = welcome in the church (and even heaven once he says his prayers and asks for forgiveness) while child victim of rape who seeks to live is not. Fucking barbarians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utabintarbo Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 You say that in jest, but really, that is what they believe. She is a human being. She has been born and is therefore already guilty. She is guilty of being a human being. It wasn't exactly in jest, as the sick irony you point out was exactly what I was trying to get across. Not really anything to laugh at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Patroller Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09030601.html We should all be grateful that Christianity and the Catholic church have been subdued in the past 250 years, and that the worst that can happen is a rebuke from the church and excommunication. These people might find themselves in a holding cell in the 1300s if they were LUCKY. I am familiar with this story and you all are correct. I went to a Cahtolic High School from 1959-63 and this touches upon what I was specifically taught in my Senior year. In the case where the pregnancy is a threat to the life or health of the would-be mother, her life takes precedence over that of the unborn. the fetus may be lost in the process of protectiong that life. From what I've gotten that criterion was met by reasonable standards. The only argument that might hold some water is a claim that reasonable standards weren't met, but then we're talking about a 9 year old. I learned this as a general rule and framed in the context an adult. I would think that, since a 9 year old is a bit more fragile in such matters the Church, true its better elements, would err on the side of caution. Ayn Rand said it best "One would think that they would give St. Thomas [Aquinas; comment added] a better funeral" . I find that Miss Rand said a lot of things best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelconservative Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I am pro-life, I am opposed to a "right" to abortion, except to save the life of the mother (where it is a moral necessity) and in the cases of rape (where there can be no moral judgement). This case ticks both boxes, it would not be morally right to force anyone, let alone a child, who had been raped to carry the child for nine months, furthermore, I am not a doctor, but I am sure there would have been significant medical complications/problems with such a young child having a child. To compound the trauma of the rape and abortion, this child and family is being excommunicated, which will cause them severe psychological harm - fear of hell, damnation etc, social exclusion. It is a disgrace, the Bishop concerned should be ashamed of himself. Come to think of it, how can he excommunicate the girl? At nine, she won't have been confirmed yet...? Either way, I think the idea that this is as dark and evil as Islam (jihad, female circumcision, forced marriage, wife beating, honour killing, stoning etc) is somewhat exaggerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Evil is as evil does. What difference does degrees of evil make? Millions are psychologically harmed by the RCC every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrippa1 Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 What difference does degrees of evil make? You're joking. (?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Evil is as evil does. What difference does degrees of evil make? Millions are psychologically harmed by the RCC every day. The difference between being beaten up and beaten to death is quite a difference. On topic, the difference between having an old man say mean words to you (excommunication) and being strangled by your own father is pretty steep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nacirema Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 The dark and evil, I think, stems from the premise, not the action. Both of the religions in question here are based that people have no right to their own life. That is the great evil that they both commit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuringAI Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I am pro-life, I am opposed to a "right" to abortion, except to save the life of the mother (where it is a moral necessity) and in the cases of rape (where there can be no moral judgement). Tell me, what defines something as a human being deserving of rights, instead of just a bunch of living cells shaped like a human? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) The dark and evil, I think, stems from the premise, not the action. Both of the religions in question here are based that people have no right to their own life. That is the great evil that they both commit. Thank you, exactly. Think about it folks, Islam and the RCC both enslave people for their natural lives into a man-made Hell of guilt and fear, poisoning their minds and stifling the free expression of their very Humanness. This is insidious and deliberate evil, for the sake of control. Edited March 17, 2009 by Maximus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I am pro-life, I am opposed to a "right" to abortion, except to save the life of the mother (where it is a moral necessity) and in the cases of rape (where there can be no moral judgement). This case ticks both boxes, it would not be morally right to force anyone, let alone a child, who had been raped to carry the child for nine months, furthermore, I am not a doctor, but I am sure there would have been significant medical complications/problems with such a young child having a child. Since you've posted to an Objectivist forum, I can only assume you want to learn more about the philosophy. As such, I will direct you to Ari Armstrong and Diana Hsieh's awesome paper about abortion. The paper was written to counter a horrible attempt to amend the Colorado constitution during the last elections, but if you read on, they discuss the morality of abortion. I used to think the way you do, but now I realize I was very wrong and understand why. This paper was a big part of helping me understand. I hope it helps you too. http://www.seculargovernment.us/docs/a48.pdf Either way, I think the idea that this is as dark and evil as Islam (jihad, female circumcision, forced marriage, wife beating, honour killing, stoning etc) is somewhat exaggerated. Have you ever read the Bible?! I grew up with the King James version and it's simply unreal some of the stuff that's printed in that awful book. I'm so very thankful that my family (and the church they attended) never lived by a strict interpretation of the Bible. For your review: Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (King James Version) 18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Deuteronomy 25:5-9 (King James Version) 5If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. 6And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. 7And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. 8Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; 9Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (New International Version) 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Exodus 21:2-6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible) Laws about Slaves 2 "When you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for six years; then in the seventh he is to leave as a free man [a] without paying anything. (A) 3 If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with a wife, his wife is to leave with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone. 5 "But if the slave declares: 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I do not want to leave as a free man, ( ' 6 his master is to bring him to the judges [c] and then bring him to the door or doorpost. His master must pierce his ear with an awl, and he will serve his master for life. Exodus 21:7-11 (New International Version) 7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [a] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. And speaking of circumcision... http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/se...n/jos05_02.html (I had to throw that in there. That website has the best Bible images ever!) I could go on and on, but I think you get the drift. The Holy Book is more like, "Holy crap!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelconservative Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) K-MAC - I understand your point, though I was referring to the distinction between excommunication and the actual punishments meted out under Islam in some parts of the world today, not to the contents of the Bible vs Qur'an. Tell me, what defines something as a human being deserving of rights, instead of just a bunch of living cells shaped like a human? I am not sure this is the right place for that debate, I will post in the abortion thread. Edited March 17, 2009 by rebelconservative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thank you, exactly. Think about it folks, Islam and the RCC both enslave people for their natural lives into a man-made Hell of guilt and fear, poisoning their minds and stifling the free expression of their very Humanness. This is insidious and deliberate evil, for the sake of control. Emphasis mine... Don't stop there. Religion, all religion is about controlling the individual and tell him what being human should mean to him/her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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