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I'm relatively new to Objectivism and it is turning my life around. But what I am reading is so contrary to my previous worldview and that of those around me that I have no one to talk to while I figure it out. I'm looking for an objectivist who would be willing to hear my story and help me process. I feel great anguish about it because I come from a very religious family, so I would prefer to keep the discussion private for now; so I am looking for an exchange via private message.

On a side note, I recently ran across a book called Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me, about the reasons people cling to false ideas even after they have been presented with evidence to the contrary. This seems like the kind of forum where that topic would be appreciated. :P

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Thank you to everyone who has responded. If you haven't heard from me yet, you will shortly.

One thing I am running into is that if I send a private message, I can't send another one for a couple of hours, so I would prefer to switch to email. My address is [email protected]. Everyone has been most kind, and I appreciate your welcome. I must say, I am a little curious, however. I've gotten such a good response that it belies the notion that atheists are not helpful. What self-interest do you find in offering to help me reconcile my personal philosophy? I'm just a stranger on the internet.

Edited by Scribulus
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I've gotten such a good response that it belies the notion that atheists are not helpful. What self-interest do you find in offering to help me reconcile my personal philosophy? I'm just a stranger on the internet.

Yeah, I was told all sorts of crap like that when I was trapped in a devoutly religious community too. My favorite one is "There are no athiests in a foxhole." I bought that one for a long time... then I went to war, found myself in a foxhole with more than one athiest, and realized what a rediculous lie I had been told.

The concept, is called benevolance. It apears that a number of people here think you are worth the investment. I, for one, see the world, that I have to live in, as a better place if you succeed in sorting out your philosophy, rather than fail. Helping you, helps me. I also find that teaching is one of the best ways to really get a handle on the subject matter.

It is worth noting that the type and manner of the questions you ask give a substantial insight into your character. Not every stranger gets the same response.

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Yeah, I was told all sorts of crap like that when I was trapped in a devoutly religious community too. My favorite one is "There are no athiests in a foxhole." I bought that one for a long time... then I went to war, found myself in a foxhole with more than one athiest, and realized what a rediculous lie I had been told.

The concept, is called benevolance. It apears that a number of people here think you are worth the investment. I, for one, see the world, that I have to live in, as a better place if you succeed in sorting out your philosophy, rather than fail. Helping you, helps me. I also find that teaching is one of the best ways to really get a handle on the subject matter.

It is worth noting that the type and manner of the questions you ask give a substantial insight into your character. Not every stranger gets the same response.

Scribulus, I am a former "minister" and Id be happy to discuss with you through PM.

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I'm relatively new to Objectivism and it is turning my life around. But what I am reading is so contrary to my previous worldview and that of those around me that I have no one to talk to while I figure it out. I'm looking for an objectivist who would be willing to hear my story and help me process. I feel great anguish about it because I come from a very religious family, so I would prefer to keep the discussion private for now; so I am looking for an exchange via private message.

On a side note, I recently ran across a book called Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me, about the reasons people cling to false ideas even after they have been presented with evidence to the contrary. This seems like the kind of forum where that topic would be appreciated. :P

Pure Objectivism is so contrary to the world we live in that I can understand the anguish and the confusion faced when confronted by a choice regarding the philosophy. Been there. Felt that. Religion is very much a part of our daily life and Objectivism as an absolute separate thought process can take time to assimilate in our mind. Best course of action would be to flow and let the contradicting emotions find their own level. You may find, to your surprize, that it is possible to follow Objectivism , as that is rational and based on factual existence, and also to have an open mind for everythign else , including religion.

I am new to the Forum too, and would welcome comment .

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Pure Objectivism is so contrary to the world we live in that I can understand the anguish and the confusion faced when confronted by a choice regarding the philosophy.
Here's a comment: Objectivism is not contrary to the world we live in. Objectivism actually demands obedience to reality. Perhaps you mean that Objectivism stands contrary to wide-spread mindless trends.
Religion is very much a part of our daily life and Objectivism as an absolute separate thought process can take time to assimilate in our mind.
That's true only if you accept the assumptions of religion, otherwise religion is a negligible part of our daily life (unless you end up wanting to do something that the religious fascists have managed to outlaw).

It is utterly impossible to harmonize Objectivism and religion -- they are at dimetrically opposed ends of the epistemological scale.

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I am moved by your responses. It validates that the questions I have been asking myself for a long time demonstrate something worthwhile about myself, rather than something that needs to be feared. I was terrified when I first grasped the connection between the awful lies told me by a sheister and the doctrines I have heard at church. The responses I have gotten to this thread have helped me sort out that changes happen, some people will weather them, and some will not. I still have said nothing to any of my friends or family. But my thinking is changing.

For example, one of my closest friends is having a moral dilemma. She has some debts that she feels burdened by, so, with great difficulty, she has gotten a job that is out of her comfort zone. Among other things it requires her to work on Sunday. Meanwhile she is the teacher of a high school religion program, and in choosing the material for a certain lesson found herself with a video that demonstrated the role of faith in following the commandments. She now feels that she has to wrestle with whether she can teach that lesson and keep her job! There was a time when I would have thought that her question showed integrity. In her own way, it does; she wants to be true to her values. But what an absurd contradiction of values! I just pointed out to her that it is also a commandment to fulfill her financial obligations. It will be interesting to see what she chooses. But I am just so aghast! To think that I ever entertained such an absurd way of living!

I don't have time at the moment to respond more, but some of you have said things I find profound and I intend to respond further.

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For example, one of my closest friends is having a moral dilemma. ... ... work on Sunday.
Lot's of religious folk around the world have moved away from such dilemmas by taking the view that their holy book should not be read in search of concretes but in search of principles. So, for instance, a person might take the "don't work on the Sabbath" rule to be a concrete application of a broader principle, say, "get a day of rest, prayer and meditation one day a week". Someone else might go further. For instance, I've heard one person say that the rule made sense as a law because otherwise masters would work their servants too hard; and, now that we do not really have the same (sometimes life-long) master-servant relationships of olden days, the rule is not very relevant any more.

In a sense, such an interpretative does not really make much sense: if one can consider the advice in the book and pick, choose and interpret, using one's reason, then how is that book any different from some other non-holy book from which one gleans advice? (Particularly if one can completely drop some advice as being no longer relevant.) Yet, the approach works because what such people are doing is using reason in some spheres, while pretending to be following their holy-book. In principle, that works better than actually following the text religiously.

So, to make a long story short, a wedge you can sometimes use is to tell people to consider the principle. Just be aware that such a wedge can put them on a "slippery slope".

Edited by softwareNerd
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Lot's of religious folk around the world have moved away from such dilemmas by taking the view that their holy book should not be read in search of concretes but in search of principles. So, for instance, a person might take the "don't work on the Sabbath" rule to be a concrete application of a broader principle, say, "get a day of rest, prayer and meditation one day a week". Someone else might go further. For instance, I've heard one person say that the rule made sense as a law because otherwise masters would work their servants too hard; and, now that we do not really have the same (sometimes life-long) master-servant relationships of olden days, the rule is not very relevant any more.

In a sense, such an interpretative does not really make much sense: if one can consider the advice in the book and pick, choose and interpret, using one's reason, then how is that book any different from some other non-holy book from which one gleans advice? (Particularly if one can completely drop some advice as being no longer relevant.) Yet, the approach works because what such people are doing is using reason in some spheres, while pretending to be following their holy-book. In principle, that works better than actually following the text religiously.

So, to make a long story short, a wedge you can sometimes use is to tell people to consider the principle. Just be aware that such a wedge can put them on a "slippery slope".

The problem is that most religious folks cannot even consider that the "book" is capable of being contradictory. Their default position is it is an undivided whole that needs to be followed to live successfuly "spiritually". Until this inviolable thesis is challenged,by them,the moment someone contradicts the "law" no further consideration is even thought relevent towards their position.

The ones who find their way out of this are the ones who try to apply the "law" consistently. To do this one has to grasp the principles set forth by this code. When one begins to investigate on the level of principles one discovers contradiction and no clear method of application in ones actions becomes possible. So how does one please a god whos message is A= non A.How does one do only "what they hear the father saying" when he "speaks" contradiction through his "word"?

The answer is "Check your premisies"! I was asked when I was struggling with theological integration [impossible] ,"have you considered the possibility that god does not exist?" This was a massive blow to me. Because I was intellectually honest with myself,I had to admit I did not even let the consideration into my mind! The same thing went for "is it possible the bible was written by men who where not writing in agreement with the other authors who are included?"

As soon as one asks these questions they become outcast and dejected. Scribulus this is the most self defining moments one can encounter. The strength one developes within, from having the courage to be true to ones own evaluations is the most important element of the process of individuation.

If theres any quote from the bible Id keep its this:

"Let every man be persuaded in his own mind"

Edited by Plasmatic
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As soon as one asks these questions they become outcast and dejected. Scribulus this is the most self defining moments one can encounter.
Ah, you have it right there. That is precisely what I am afraid of. Ultimately I know I will cope, and they will cope. But between here and there is a path I am not looking forward to.

It's a necessary surgery...but at least I have the comfort of knowing it is an elective and not an emergency one.

If theres any quote from the bible Id keep its this: "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind"
I like this one: "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you." But if we're going to cite scripture in the service of Objectivism, I can't miss this one from the Book of Mormon: "Cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves."

So, to make a long story short, a wedge you can sometimes use is to tell people to consider the principle. Just be aware that such a wedge can put them on a "slippery slope".
Perhaps. The slope may be slippery, but it is gentle enough to still feel like being on the mountain. Asking the question "have you considered the possibility that god does not exist?" feels like falling off a very large cliff. At that point you can no longer pretend that the forms of your life are correct and you can just alter the path a little; you have to admit to yourself that everything that came before was a lie. And there are no ski lifts. You have to hike back to the top, and when you get there, the trails are all different and you find yourself on an entirely different mountain. But what a run!

The concept, is called benevolance. It apears that a number of people here think you are worth the investment. I, for one, see the world, that I have to live in, as a better place if you succeed in sorting out your philosophy, rather than fail. Helping you, helps me. I also find that teaching is one of the best ways to really get a handle on the subject matter.

It is worth noting that the type and manner of the questions you ask give a substantial insight into your character. Not every stranger gets the same response.

I find this deeply moving. I've written several responses and abandoned them. I'm still at a loss for words.
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I seem to have sent the entire post of Scribulus as reply , by mistake :(

Once , while sitting at the edge of a cliff, on the top of a not very high, green hill, watching clouds swirling below in the valley , i realised that the fact of God's existence need not be controversial . The presence or absence of the entity as told to us made no difference to the being I was. I realised that the presence i had always felt was within me , which rose in response to the particular quest of the moment. When i asked for strength , for sanity , for direction, it was motivating the self. Nothing more. Asking myself to gather my resources and meet the challenge. It was faith in the self. I asked

Maybe a very simplistic viewpoint, but seems logical . Give results anyway.

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... i realised that the fact of God's existence need not be controversial . The presence or absence of the entity as told to us made no difference to the being I was.
What you describe is the notion that even if God exists, he/she/it is fundamentally irrelevant to our lives. That is somewhat like a "deist" conception of God.

It is more logical than typical religion, because it mostly dispense with religion.

Edited by softwareNerd
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Weren't the Founding Fathers mostly deists? Except there is that one incident with Benjamin Franklin that religionists are so fond of quoting, when he spoke up during the writing of the Constitution to ask for prayer, and said, "The older I grow, the more convincing proofs I see that god governs in the affairs of men." I've always wondered what those proofs were.

Edited by Scribulus
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