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So me and this other guy were arguing about this quote from Atlas Shrugged.

"the man who is certain of his own value, will want the highest type of woman; the woman he admires, the strongest-because only the possession of a heroine will give him the sense of achievement."

It's one of my favorites but he said it merely transforms a woman into a prize to reflect a man's own success.

So I told him, he's right, that's exactly what it is, in the sense that the quote assumes the man to be one who is aware of his own value, and takes pride in himself, so he pursues a woman who reflects his own values, and yes his success in obtaining those.

He had nothing to say to that except for saying "you missed the part about possession."

And I'm trying my best to explain it, but in all honesty this was really hard for me to understand in the first place, so it's very hard for me to explain to someone else. I understand how it's the ultimate form of recognition to his own worth that the woman he most admires would allow him that sort of possession, as well as for her, I guess I'm just having trouble explaining it.

And I don't think I would be able to explain it adequately and I was just hoping for some help it how you would explain the kind of possession to someone.

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I think it's literary license. I don't think Ms. Rand meant possession in the sense of, "I own this thing and can do with it as I wish." Love is value given for value received, just like anything else. When she wrote "possession," I think she meant a woman values a man, and gives her love to him - that love is his as long as she gives it. But she does not give it freely. She gives it in return for his love - which is hers to own as long as he gives it. They both give in exchange for the other's, because they want to, because they both represent what each values. Each recognize they are a person whose values are attractive to another, but not just any "other." An other who values are a reflection of their own values. That is the success - that a life lived morally reaps rewards, one of which is the selfish love of another who also lives a moral life.

She could just as easily have written, "The woman who is certain of her own value will want the highest type of man; the man she admires, the strongest - because only the possession of a hero will give her the sense of achievement."

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I think this appraisal is spot-on. I'm glad you mentioned 'literary license', JeffS, as I think it's key to full understanding of AS. I've tried to come up with other terms : 'poetic emphasis', 'literary magnification', 'literary enhancement' - not one of them says it all.

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It's one of my favorites but he said it merely transforms a woman into a prize to reflect a man's own success.

So I told him, he's right, that's exactly what it is, in the sense that the quote assumes the man to be one who is aware of his own value, and takes pride in himself, so he pursues a woman who reflects his own values, and yes his success in obtaining those.

You're both using the wrong meaning of possesion. The phrase "to possess a woman" means to have sex with a woman. That's what Francisco is saying.

If you're not convicned then think of Dagny. Would she consent to be the trophy wife of any man, no matter how successful? If you can imagine something more ludicrous than Dagny as a scintillating airhead hanging to Rearden's arm with a perpetually open mouth, do tell me what it is :D

Oh, here's the citation:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/possessing

Look at the fifth definition.

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If you're not convicned then think of Dagny. Would she consent to be the trophy wife of any man, no matter how successful? If you can imagine something more ludicrous than Dagny as a scintillating airhead hanging to Rearden's arm with a perpetually open mouth, do tell me what it is :D

Oh, here's the citation:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/possessing

Look at the fifth definition.

Yeah that's exactly what I told him. I told him he needed to read the full book, and understand the character they were talking about. TThat Ayn Rand would not turn her heroine into some mindless trophy wife, but he's just so hung up on the word possession, that it became very hard to discuss and it got all muddled up in my trying to defend that single world.

Thanks!

I think it's literary license. I don't think Ms. Rand meant possession in the sense of, "I own this thing and can do with it as I wish." Love is value given for value received, just like anything else. When she wrote "possession," I think she meant a woman values a man, and gives her love to him - that love is his as long as she gives it. But she does not give it freely. She gives it in return for his love - which is hers to own as long as he gives it. They both give in exchange for the other's, because they want to, because they both represent what each values. Each recognize they are a person whose values are attractive to another, but not just any "other." An other who values are a reflection of their own values. That is the success - that a life lived morally reaps rewards, one of which is the selfish love of another who also lives a moral life.

She could just as easily have written, "The woman who is certain of her own value will want the highest type of man; the man she admires, the strongest - because only the possession of a hero will give her the sense of achievement."

Yeah, that's about what I told him as well, he's just so superficial he can only think of possession and that sense and keeps hitting on that one single word, and it's hard to make him imagine it meaning anything else. This also what my dad said, but that I shouldn't bother because the guy doesn't sound like he can grasp abstract thought :-)

But thank you, this is very helpful and much more eloquent than my explanation. That's what i'm still trying to develop, I discovered Rand young but only later started applying her ideas to my life, and I still don't have it to where I can completely explain all of it, even if I understand it!

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Yeah that's exactly what I told him. I told him he needed to read the full book, and understand the character they were talking about. TThat Ayn Rand would not turn her heroine into some mindless trophy wife, but he's just so hung up on the word possession, that it became very hard to discuss and it got all muddled up in my trying to defend that single world.

If he heasn't read the book, he won't do it only to see your point in an argument. So show him the dictionary definition. Past that there's not much you can do.

Unless you want to mess with him, then you should ask him a nonsense question and see what he comes up with. I suggest you start by posing "What is the purpose of meaning?" :D

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