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The Wrath

need advice on an unusual (for me) situation

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Due to my legendary bad luck with women, this is a situation I have never found myself in before. There are 2 girls that I have been on a few dates with, each. One seems to be somewhat interested in me. The other is harder to read, but I think she is too. I'm not remotely intimate with either one yet, and neither of them knows about the other. The problem is that I kinda like both of them--each for different reasons--but it is becoming an increasingly awkward situation to deal with.

Before I can really get emotionally invested in either one, I have to tell them that I've been seeing someone else. With one of them (we'll call her girl A), I might be at the point where we're going to start seeing each other on a more serious basis, so she definitely has to know about girl B, even if I wind up tying it off with B. But I'm not really ready to stop seeing B either, because I like her for her own reasons.

I'm seeing A sometime this weekend, and plan to tell her about B.

What is the smart way to approach this situation?

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Bad luck? Having the pick of two women is a good problem to have.

I recommend not telling either girl about the other, unless they have a good chance of finding out on their own. If a girl knows that she's competing with someone else for your affection it could taint a budding relationship or stop it altogether.

Hold off on the intimacy until you're sure which one you want to be with and then terminate the other relationship, with none the wiser.

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Well, if I'm about to start dating girl A a bit more seriously, I think she needs to know. A few months ago, after we were first introduced by a mutual friend, she told me that she was gonna start dating another guy...just letting me know where I stood, which I appreciated. The reason I feel like I should tell her is because, on Saturday, she asked what I was doing later that day...I told a small fib and said I might be meeting a college friend, but actually was meeting girl B. That date wound up being a total disaster, but that's another story...

Also, where exactly is the "intimacy" line for something like this? Obviously, if I have sex with one, I should tie off the other. But does cuddling/kissing on the couch cross that line? Man, I feel like a 16 year-old having to ask these questions, but I have just never had to juggle 2 potential relationships at the same time like this.

And I said I have legendary bad luck because I always have in the past. If you've read my past posts on this topic, you'll remember that my erstwhile wife walked out on me without giving much of a reason and, before her, I'd never dated anyone for more than 2 weeks. This is a very unusual situation for me...and I may be very wrong in my perceptions. It's very possible that they'll both decide they aren't interested in me, after they get to know me a bit better, so I'm trying not to get my hopes up.

Edited by The Wrath

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Hey Wrath,

Sometimes we need to learn from the pros.... There's a whole community out there call the "Seduction Community" that revolves around picking up girls. Hold on though, it's not all just superficial BS... If you start looking there are a zillion production available over the internet the delve into this sort of thing.

Look for David Deangelo's Deep Inner Game.

It's a video seminar course that's all about being a man and not just that, but a respectful man that makes his own decisions and knows what he wants. Incidentally, it turns out that this is precisely what drives women crazy. This program is easily found for sale on the internet and also on the torrents.

I watched this program about 4 years ago and I must say that it definitely put me further on the right path as now I am happily married.

I met my wife just over two years ago now, I proposed to her after two months, and recently we've just celebrated our first year anniversary. We're happy as can be. Now, let me tell you about the success of it all-- HONESTY! ... that and having that deep inner game (security). The thing was that when I met her there was none of that up front BS that you typically run into. We just had fun and we were honest with each other about everything. (Radical Honesty by Brad Blanton is a great book as well).

Either way, the trick to finding someone that your going to be happy with is to just be real with them. Yes, the time will come where you should make your decision about which one you want, but by no means should you have to hide another friend that's a girl from the other one. Be honest with them... and there's no rush to sleep with them! Some of the best sex that you ever might find will be until you have held out as long as physically possible and by this point you will have decided which one you really want to be with, so then if she's on the same page go for it!

Don't be afraid to tell them about you... be honest and if you respect them, they will respect you in return. ... and check out that Deep Inner Game!

Best of luck!

Chris

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Either way, the trick to finding someone that your going to be happy with is to just be real with them. Yes, the time will come where you should make your decision about which one you want, but by no means should you have to hide another friend that's a girl from the other one. Be honest with them...

I agree with this 100%. All solid relationships are built on a foundation of trust, and that means always being open and honest about your status, goals and intentions. If the other person is honest and rational, she'll understand where you're coming from -- and if she isn't, do you really want to be in a relationship with her?

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But I'm not really ready to stop seeing B either, because I like her for her own reasons.

I'm seeing A sometime this weekend, and plan to tell her about B.

What is the smart way to approach this situation?

If your avatar is a picture of you, I can see why you've been having "bad luck" with women. :o

On a more serious note, it seems to me that you simply have reached a point where you have to choose between one or the other. I think you should weigh the options carefully and pick a girl. This doesn't mean that you have to stop seeing the other girl entirely. If you pick girl A, tell girl B that you're in relationship and would still like to be friends. Remember that staying friends with the girl you don't choose may not be possible for her or you.

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My avatar is actually a picture of my alterego, who has been known throughout the ages as The Wrath, Moose, or Conan. He comes out at the full moon, and also on Columbus Day for some strange reason.

And I might have been a bit premature. I saw A yesterday, and she wants to keep moving slow...which is fine with me, because it means I can keep seeing B until the situation either works itself out, or until I have a better idea of who I like better. I told her about B, and she actually encouraged me to keep seeing her, so I guess I don't have to worry about her feeling like she's in competition.

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She might be thinking that, but i'd bet it's in the sense that she's clearly attracted to him and therefore tests him to see if he's right for her.

The Wrath has mentioned a couple of things that could be tests from her. The first one is that she mentioned she's dating others, which could be just to see if she can make him jealous and insecure. The other one is that she mentioned moving slower. She's probably unsure and wants to know where he stands, as well as him convincing her and winning her(meaning, he'll get nowhere by moving slow with her).

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I met my wife just over two years ago now, I proposed to her after two months, and recently we've just celebrated our first year anniversary. We're happy as can be. Now, let me tell you about the success of it all-- HONESTY! ... that and having that deep inner game (security). The thing was that when I met her there was none of that up front BS that you typically run into. We just had fun and we were honest with each other about everything.

Agreed.

Isn't justice in objectivism about honesty?

No BS relationships do really work. Similarly, my wife and I talked about marriage after only a few months. Sixteen years after a chance meeting 500 miles away from my home, life is very valuable together.

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Wow, without reading any responses, I must respond! I too was in a similar situation with 4 women (well, 2 serious, 2 potentially so). I was exponentially lucky (wasn't there a thread about luck recently). In the end, I married one, and now I'm getting a divorce. Point being, I have a lot to say about what I should have done differently.

My ideal situation would have been to keep dating both girls for a long time. I say ideal, because people get close, start desiring/demanding intimacy, it gets tough. But my personal view is that men an women in their personal relations, should be courting and not 'being friends', as well as that intimacy should be reserved for those that are highly valued. So, lots and lots of simple, uncomplicated dating. This is also means they should be dating others. You really get to know and love people, or drift away from them. In fact, it could go in waves. For awhile, you do a lot of things with one girl, then drift and end up spending more time with the other. When you are ready, you make a move (usually saying, 'hey I like you and want to be together', more probably involving flowers and candles, but whatever).

Given the frustrating fact that men and women in the dating market aren't as enlightened as I, the reality is more difficult to handle. In your situation, from my perspective of my situation, I'd first avoid mentioning the other girl - while not ever denying it explicitly. When girls know you're with other girls, they care, but they desperately don't want you to tell them about it. Even if they don't like you best, they want you to like them best. So, if you're ask, only answer immediate questions. 'Are you dating ____? Yes, I am'. 'How much? A little.' Don't offer more information than what you have to! That's the default expectation - and I would let the girl let you know if she's different.

As for deciding - don't get too intimate! If you watch a movie on a couch, an arm around her is okay if it comes off later. Short brief things that are contextually appropriate show a developed and desired relationship, but not a subtle hinting of committment. Don't kiss! I've seen cute movies of guys kissing girls at their door to say goodnight. I did it once, and she attached! I was trying to say, "You're sweet and intelligent, and I'm happy to keep dating you". I didn't mean, "Let's make out all the time and think about our long-term plans".

Once you feel like you really like one girl more than the other, start spending more time with the girl you don't like. Balance it out. If that doesn't change your feelings, then shift the balance to the girl you like, and keep up with that. It is now time to fess up. Tell the one you're interested and serious with the other. Tell the other you're ready to be exclusive. Strategically, do it in the reverse order I have.

The one thing I regret is not giving the girls I thought I didn't like more time when I first thought I didn't like them. I learned later that that feeling was a conclusion I jumped to too soon. In retrospect I know exactly who I would have preferred to be with most (not my wife).

Good luck!

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Given the frustrating fact that men and women in the dating market aren't as enlightened as I, the reality is more difficult to handle. In your situation, from my perspective of my situation, I'd first avoid mentioning the other girl - while not ever denying it explicitly. When girls know you're with other girls, they care, but they desperately don't want you to tell them about it. Even if they don't like you best, they want you to like them best. So, if you're ask, only answer immediate questions. 'Are you dating ____? Yes, I am'. 'How much? A little.' Don't offer more information than what you have to! That's the default expectation - and I would let the girl let you know if she's different.

I'd do the exact opposite and make it clear, early on, that i'm "multitasking". If she finds out later she may feel cheated and she may have invested more in it emotionally than I have. Being up front about it from the start rarely, if ever, causes any trouble. She'll know you like her the best if and when you do, and tell her you've ditched the others to date her exclusively(here I would also give her some time to think about it before i expect her to do the same, but i'd be clear that I want the same commitment for it to work).

Of course there's no obligation of telling her, but be careful so she doesnt get the wrong idea.

As for deciding - don't get too intimate! If you watch a movie on a couch, an arm around her is okay if it comes off later. Short brief things that are contextually appropriate show a developed and desired relationship, but not a subtle hinting of committment. Don't kiss! I've seen cute movies of guys kissing girls at their door to say goodnight. I did it once, and she attached! I was trying to say, "You're sweet and intelligent, and I'm happy to keep dating you". I didn't mean, "Let's make out all the time and think about our long-term plans".

The problem here is not kissing her, but not telling her that you're not ready to make long-term plans. Just tell her you like her but never said you're going to marry her. Also if you have been open about seeing others she's much less likely to jump to such conclusions.

In my book "wanna come over and watch a movie?" is code for "wanna have sex?". It's okay if you don't want to make such a commitment too early on, but taking too long with even kissing her is a good way of messing things up(she may think you either lack the balls or that you don't find her attractive).

Honesty and adressing any issue right away always works the best. If you notice she's making the wrong assumptions, correct her. Make sure you're roughly on the same page and she will most likely both trust and respect you.

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Wow, Z’s got such a foreign and almost disconcerting mindset on this issue to me. Oo;

First of all, I find the entire concept of dating somebody to decide if you are actually interested in them very bizarre and counterintuitive. I wouldn’t want to start dating somebody until I knew I was quite seriously interested in them, and until then I wouldn’t want to have some half-assed, quazi-relationship. That would be so awkward I’d think. Maybe somebody would be a friend or just an acquaintance until I knew enough things about them I found favorable to want a relationship. Also, it’s weird for me just to think of their being a period where you are being watched by somebody specifically to assess them for romantic compatibility. I generally have just thought you just go about your business socializing with people like normal, getting along, getting to know people as you’re just doing the things you want to do, and then maybe at some point, if things go well, you’ll find somebody in there that you’ve gotten to know over maybe a while being on the same bowling team and then organizing a local book discussion group actually has a whole lot in common with you, shares lots of your values, gets your sense of humor, has some of your same deep concerns and goals and so on and tada! You’re now quite attracted to them. And if things go really well? Tada! They have found they are also really attracted to you. And THEN you date, having already gotten to know each other and establish your common grounds and some history. Maybe it doesn’t have to always take that long, but point is, get to know them and make up your mind and then date, not the other way around. D: Dating is like when you’ve mostly made up your mind. Man, if other people are starting dating just to get to know people, no wonder I hear so many stories about so many stupid, whiney, bitter, et cetera people that people used to date and all kinds of not fun stuff as they parted ways.

Second, I’d want to know all about any other person somebody I like is pursuing, though stopping short of expecting to be told things which are meant to be secret. Are they enjoying it? If so, I’m glad, if not, that’s a shame. I’d want to know about that subject the same way and or the same reasons I’d want to know about anything else going on in their life. What kinds of activities are they doing? Maybe there’s ideas for things we could do I could find out that way, or what not to do. And after all, what kind of other people they like romantically and how much also gives me more insight about them.

Third, the kissing thing. Man, I swear that has been my idea of the general way to gauge when it is ok to pursue kissing somebody without having to ask first, once they have sought to kiss you. I have seen it as once that happens, it is the signal that they like kissing you, so as long as you don’t try at inopportune times, you may now basically seek to do so as you please. In your mind even when somebody else seeks to do so with/to you first that still doesn’t count as a sign they generally approve of doing so with you? Yeesh, when then IS the point when somebody can know it’s ok? Do you need a written statement? DX And as for long term plans, see, I wouldn’t even want to start dating somebody until I was ready to start thinking of long term plans with them (see above though, that’s largely because I wouldn’t want to date somebody I barely knew and was not sure whether I was all that interested in them or not.)

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So, Blue, you would not spend any time alone with someone before deciding He Might Just Possibly Be The One?

I basically find it impossible to get to know anyone otherwise, too many distractions, other people horning in to try to hit on her, etc., etc., endless etc.

I suspect "dating" is being used in two different senses here. Spending some time with someone to get to know them in order to make that decision might be defined by some as "dating" but I suspect you are using "dating" in the sense of being already pretty seriously interested. And I agree that it may be a bad idea to kiss someone in the first context. (I've occasionally had one date (of the first kind), no repetition, not on the grounds that the woman thought I was a loser like you describe, just that it turned out once we actually had twenty uninterrupted minutes to converse that we had too little in common. A goodbye kiss there (given by her) might be appropriate as a compliment or thank you.)

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Alone? Of course I would, but just being alone with somebody doesn't mean you are dating them. :P If that was true, lots of people would be dating their tutors and the like. Also, I don't subscribe to the Highlander sort of "There can be only one!" idea of romance; I don't there is but this one exact person out there for all of us. ;P Additionally, I wouldn't even be spending time with people in order to get to assess their romantic compatibility. As I said, that seems weird to me, like a really inefficient, extended interview. (If I were being interviewed or interviewing somebody, I'd much prefer we cut to the chase and just straight out ask as many questions as we could think of that really mattered to us in romance.) I spend time with people for other reasons, like shared hobbies or group projects or something, and then if in the course of other pursuits I were to find enough happened to be right for me about somebody around me, grand!

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Third, the kissing thing. Man, I swear that has been my idea of the general way to gauge when it is ok to pursue kissing somebody without having to ask first, once they have sought to kiss you. I have seen it as once that happens, it is the signal that they like kissing you, so as long as you don’t try at inopportune times, you may now basically seek to do so as you please. In your mind even when somebody else seeks to do so with/to you first that still doesn’t count as a sign they generally approve of doing so with you? Yeesh, when then IS the point when somebody can know it’s ok? Do you need a written statement? DX And as for long term plans, see, I wouldn’t even want to start dating somebody until I was ready to start thinking of long term plans with them (see above though, that’s largely because I wouldn’t want to date somebody I barely knew and was not sure whether I was all that interested in them or not.)

Asking permission to kiss someone? :P:D

Just kidding, I think I know what you mean; in many cases it means crossing a certain "boundary". It depends alot on the context though, and the same thing goes for making long term plans. Assumptions can mess things up(maybe not with kissing though, unless you're not completely out of line it's not a big deal). You seem to be looking at it from a context where it usually means more than "hey, I like you!".

Alone? Of course I would, but just being alone with somebody doesn't mean you are dating them. :P If that was true, lots of people would be dating their tutors and the like. Also, I don't subscribe to the Highlander sort of "There can be only one!" idea of romance; I don't there is but this one exact person out there for all of us. ;P Additionally, I wouldn't even be spending time with people in order to get to assess their romantic compatibility. As I said, that seems weird to me, like a really inefficient, extended interview. (If I were being interviewed or interviewing somebody, I'd much prefer we cut to the chase and just straight out ask as many questions as we could think of that really mattered to us in romance.) I spend time with people for other reasons, like shared hobbies or group projects or something, and then if in the course of other pursuits I were to find enough happened to be right for me about somebody around me, grand!

I regard a date as when I set up some sort of activity and she shows up. It can be with someone I met on the street, buss, grocery store, at a nightclub, party, school or work. Maybe we have just had a quick chat or we already know each other a little more. The point is having a good time and getting to know each other better, which in turn will hopefully make for a good assesment of our romantic compatibility. If it would turn into an interview i'd lose interest very quickly.

Meeting people through shared interests can be very good if you meet enough new people. Atleast the chances are higher for shared values. Personally though I don't meet alot of people that way, and even when I do i'm not likely to have a chance to get to know them much before dating.

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When I say 'dating', I mean when a couple is alone for the purpose of getting to know each other, both with some interest in one another.

When two people hang out and are romantic exclusively, I would call that 'going steady' or whatever (incidently, I recall a very awkward and embarrassing moment from earlier in my life when I realized what my mother means when she says 'dating seriously').

Before you can date someone, you do have to meet them. You might be acquaintances, colleagues, friends, or maybe you just met. Yes, there must be some initial reason for liking them. Sometimes it's just attraction and a general appraisal of their virtues (do they dress neatly? or whatever).

I am totally against, personally, and philosophically, the 'hang-out' method of romance. Dating requires two individuals to confront each other with the explicit intent of appraising each others' virtues and developing romance. Dating can be very natural, casual, and doesn't need to lead immediately to romance - but that is its ultimate purpose.

As for bluecherry and kissing - on the issue of romance, I'm inclined to be sexist - are you a girl bluecherry, I think you are from an earlier thread? I think girls should wait for a sign or an attempt to kiss by the man. Men have the responsibility of deciding whether they are ready and want to kiss a girl, and then do it. A woman can give hints, try to be attractive to the man, and also give signs that she's not ready. But in a proper romance, the man should make the move! On a more personal note, if you are a girl, of course you want to know who else the man is dating!!! I said in my earlier post that women want to know, and will try to find out, and that perhaps they should - but the man dating them must not speak of them to each other. He shouldn't be dishonest, but he should avoid mentioning it.

Why? If a man is the one to 'make the move', then he must as an individual make his appraisal of both women. He can't include the women in that decision, it would be a sacrifice. A rational woman wouldn't want a man to do that, she may rationally want to find out who her competition is, but not from him! Her virtues must win her the man, not her manipulations. In the end, to the winner, it will be as if the other woman never was. That's the theory I guess I'm discussing.

Can a woman make the move? Sure, maybe under certain circumstances - life is complicated - communication more so - romance more than anything. But I'm speaking generally.

If I could reiterate my main suggestion regardint the original topic of the thread, I would just say that when you have an opportunity to date more than one person, avoid letting romance and emotions get ahead of rational romance. Don't kiss one girl when there are still so many things about the other you still like and want to know more about. Establish a standard. Dating doesn't mean sex, or kissing, or whatever. It means getting together, having unique moments, and doing that as long as circumstances allow. When romance is fully developed, go for it.

And women can date many men, same picture.

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When I say 'dating', I mean when a couple is alone for the purpose of getting to know each other, both with some interest in one another.

But a "date" is still aiming for a goal of romance. If I went with just 1 other friend out to lunch, with the purpose of just getting to know my friend, would that be a date? I would imagine you'd still require a hope for romance to be part of what defines a "date" as opposed to a "meeting". But you also say "Dating can be very natural, casual, and doesn't need to lead immediately to romance - but that is its ultimate purpose," so I don't quite follow what you mean in what I quoted.

Men have the responsibility of deciding whether they are ready and want to kiss a girl, and then do it.

But in a proper romance, the man should make the move!

Says who? It's merely a convention that many people conform to.

Why? If a man is the one to 'make the move', then he must as an individual make his appraisal of both women.

If the woman "made the move" in *this* situation, I imagine it would be that much easier for the OP to pick which woman he prefers.

I don't intend to misrepresent you in saying this, but it seems to me you're suggesting "this is what men do and this is what women do with regards to dating". In my opinion, dating in the sense you are talking about is just a cultural norm. Once you are romantically attracted to someone, it is nice to have personal time with them, but dating in order to discover such a connection is unnecessary, and frankly, it sounds a little boring.

Edited by Eiuol

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Eiuol has already said some of my thoughts here now. *nods* I second the contents of that post.

Alfa, actually, the only two people I've ever kissed we actually did have a verbalized question and agreement before doing so and then from that point on I took it as ok for us to do so pretty much whenever. That's really been my experience. It may sound like asking directly is stiff and uptight, but quite frankly, I'm pretty sure without such I would never know when it was ok to do so the first time. If you can't just assume after the first time that it is ok unless they raise some objection, that would suck, it would mean like I'd have to go back and ask EVERY time either if I could or if that was their intent before doing so. I also though don't take kissing to mean just, "hey, I like you" - "Hey, I like you," in my book is a hug, a handshake, maybe at most a peck on the cheek or forehead. I can understand not everybody needs THAT direct an agreement to go ahead with kissing somebody, but, perhaps in part because I treat it more seriously than some people, I have to be damn sure it's wanted before I would kiss anybody. If I did so to somebody who had been not wanting it, mistaking their intents or "signals" or whatever, I'd be absolutely MORTIFIED. It would probably be at least a year before I could show my face in front of them, if I didn't just devote a life time commitment to avoiding them.

See, I'd much prefer a direct interview to "casual dating" - the latter just seems like a really slow and unfair version of the former to me. It's like you spend a ton of time and maybe money too possibly getting your hopes up and trying to beat around the bush and interpret things indirectly rather than just going ahead and asking them about what matters to you and giving them the chance to fully explain themselves. If I was trying to assess somebody specifically for romantic potential, that's why I'd just want a regular interview. That's basically what the first meeting with my first mate was like and we both enjoyed it very much. I don't know about you if your interviews would be boring, but we had interesting questions and stories to tell. :P Normally though, I don't end up doing the "interview" thing either though. As I said, I just get to know whoever is around me in the course of my normal goings about.

Z, while I wish I could just tell you to guess if I'm male or female, I've given up on that, everybody always guesses correctly anyway just because of the username being interpreted as something girly. :P So yes, I'm female.

As I just explained, your version of dating just is the sort of thing which gets on my nerves and is really uncomfortable for me. I either want to make up my mind BEFORE dating - which I don't take to be itself a process aimed at getting to know people, I don't want to start getting any kind of non-humorous lovey-dovey with somebody I'm not even sure if they're really somebody of the sort I want after all - or if I am just with somebody for the sake of assessing them for romance, then I want it done openly and cutting to the chase. I think your version is not only NOT the only way to learn of somebody's virtues and such, but personally it is my last choice.

So anyway, as a female, I've already said I agree with Eioul that a female waiting on the male is just a tradition, not needed. Were it not for some complicating circumstances, I know the last male I was seriously romantically interested in I would have leapt and tackled him to the ground kissing him the first chance I got. I'd also have to inquire though what you think myself and the first female I dated should have done though, who would we be obligated to wait for taking the first move? ;P

Also, I told you specifically in my last post that I don't follow your idea about females not wanting to know much about who else is being dated. I don't just want to know names, I want to hear all about it and I hope things go well. :D I have ZERO desire to manipulate or sabotage the situation. I fully trust that if somebody is to be with me and not with somebody else, that should be because I'm really better suited to them. Trying to make somebody else look bad doesn't make me any better suited to somebody, so making the other person look bad either accomplishes nothing (except making you a worse person) because you were already right anyway, or they will just not take either of you (or any of you, assuming more than two), or if they do pick you just because they can't find anybody better, then you've got a pretty hollow "victory" which has long term problems built into it. Who with any real self-esteem would want to be taken as a romantic partner as a matter of being just settled for? (Now assuming hypothetically you don't try to make the other(s) look bad and the result is a tie and you are both/all equally totally right for this other person and care for that person very much, that's another issue I won't sidetrack the thread with, but just rest assured I still don't think t would be bad or reason to want to make the others look worse for.)

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Alfa, actually, the only two people I've ever kissed we actually did have a verbalized question and agreement before doing so and then from that point on I took it as ok for us to do so pretty much whenever. That's really been my experience. It may sound like asking directly is stiff and uptight, but quite frankly, I'm pretty sure without such I would never know when it was ok to do so the first time. If you can't just assume after the first time that it is ok unless they raise some objection, that would suck, it would mean like I'd have to go back and ask EVERY time either if I could or if that was their intent before doing so. I also though don't take kissing to mean just, "hey, I like you" - "Hey, I like you," in my book is a hug, a handshake, maybe at most a peck on the cheek or forehead. I can understand not everybody needs THAT direct an agreement to go ahead with kissing somebody, but, perhaps in part because I treat it more seriously than some people, I have to be damn sure it's wanted before I would kiss anybody. If I did so to somebody who had been not wanting it, mistaking their intents or "signals" or whatever, I'd be absolutely MORTIFIED. It would probably be at least a year before I could show my face in front of them, if I didn't just devote a life time commitment to avoiding them.

And i've never asked, and never will. :D

Granted i'm pretty good at gauging those things(i'm very good at reading body language), but you can't know for sure until you've tried. Either you're sucessful or she turns the cheek, pushes you away or slaps you. No big deal(I can't remember if i've ever been slapped though). Sometimes you just have to take your chances. No reason to be mortified if it fails, it's not like there's anything wrong with it or something to be ashamed of.

With this mindset assumptions are also unecessary. Of course there's a good reason to think that once you've kissed there may be more kissing to come, but if you want it and the timing isnt completely off you might as well just go for it and see where it leads. If you're on the same page it's awesome, otherwise correct the mistake and take it from there.

See, I'd much prefer a direct interview to "casual dating" - the latter just seems like a really slow and unfair version of the former to me. It's like you spend a ton of time and maybe money too possibly getting your hopes up and trying to beat around the bush and interpret things indirectly rather than just going ahead and asking them about what matters to you and giving them the chance to fully explain themselves. If I was trying to assess somebody specifically for romantic potential, that's why I'd just want a regular interview. That's basically what the first meeting with my first mate was like and we both enjoyed it very much. I don't know about you if your interviews would be boring, but we had interesting questions and stories to tell. :) Normally though, I don't end up doing the "interview" thing either though. As I said, I just get to know whoever is around me in the course of my normal goings about.

I think dating should first and foremost be about sense of life and experiencing the other person. That means doing different things together, having a good time and talking about different things; everything from cracking jokes to more serious ideas. That way you see what the person is like in reality. A Q&A session seems more like trying to assess how a person fits some preconcieved notion of what an ideal partner would be like, instead of really looking at the person in front of you and see how you really like him.

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Yeah, I think I'll stick with my method of playing it safe. I cannot afford mistakes. ^^;;

You don't need to date to find out that sort of other stuff either though, you can find it out doing other things with them for other reasons, since I did say the interview style wasn't my normal way of going about things. I also assume if you were doing the interview type you would only proceed to do so after you've already seen some things to make it worth inquiring, to lead you to believe there could be good things to be found out. You don't seek to interview everybody in the world or everybody you come across after all. Also, it wouldn't be a very formal thing like the attitude of a job interview, so you can get a good deal of their sense of life coming through in the interview sort of thing though too due to what they do and how they respond to various questions and what seems how important to them.

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I don't intend to misrepresent you in saying this, but it seems to me you're suggesting "this is what men do and this is what women do with regards to dating". In my opinion, dating in the sense you are talking about is just a cultural norm. Once you are romantically attracted to someone, it is nice to have personal time with them, but dating in order to discover such a connection is unnecessary, and frankly, it sounds a little boring.

I haven't read bluecherry's response yet, but I want to clarify that in terms of romance I only speak from my perspective as a man, and that is the context of the advice I was trying to give. When I said that the man needs to decide whom he prefers should he be dating multiple women, I meant it in that context. Men and women have equality in that sense, as women dating multiple men would do the same. But as a man, in dating women, I have to assume and expect that I will be the one to make the move, that I will be the one to choose, and so forth. I suppose a woman could think to do the same, but that has no bearing on what I would do in a relationship. If a woman 'made a move' on me (for clarity let's say this involves saying, "I like you, let's be exclusive", or some sort of implicit gesture of that nature), I would have to choose what to do.

I would probably not choose that woman. Why? There is such a thing in fact as femininity and masculinity, and romantic relationships depend in part on those distinctions and roles. Must women be feminine? Professionally, I'd say no. I'd never judge a woman on her womanness if she were an acquaintance or colleague in the context of my association with her. But romantically, I would judge a woman who tried to assume more of the masculine responsibilities.

My reason isn't philosophical, it's from experience. I have dated and at one time appreciated women who have been more aggressive in pursuing me. These relationships have been disasterous! From the get go, deferment to the woman's aggressive personality is established. While I continued to accept this, she dictated the course of the romance. My appreciation of this was completely wrong and altruistic. As I tried to establish my opinion and perspective, it provoked conflict. I forgave the conflict in the interest of 'love', which 'love' I was receiving for free from the woman. This is why she pursued me in the first place. My mother was very unconditionally loving, and that's sometimes very harmful. There were certain women who knew that if they gave me that 'free' love, I would irrationally accept them in their flaws. Objectivism has helped me sort that out, at least. I think some men could do fine with women who 'make the move', but they would necessarily have to be very aggressive themselves, and indifferent in some respects.

Romance isn't about equality. Friendship is. Business is. That is, each partner has rights and their relationship must satisfy the interests of both as a free trade. So, relationships generally have that equality in them. But in romance, there are two poles. It's not just anatomy, men and women are different and experience romance differently. With all the variety in humanity, and all the different factors that may affect rational romance, you can't take general categories as absolute givens. Some women, for example, may be more trusting of men and more comfortable with masculinity. Others may need more gentleness (again, I'm speaking from a man's perspective, it can work the other way).

The general defintion I'm sticking to is that men ought to 'make the move'. Think of Dagny Taggart. In many ways, she 'made the move', but did so subtly and implicitly. She waited for Hank to literally take her, defering to his masculinity in their romance. I don't have an answer for exactly what the dichotomy between masulinity and femininity is, but I do know that inasmuch as I have let women lead in romance, it has been difficult and confusing, and inasmuch as I have led, they have responded well. That may be just me, but I've observed it in other relationships as well. To the point where I don't think a woman is irrational when she desires to be pursured, and not the other way around. That's the point I was making from my earlier anecdote, I learned that I don't want to be pursued by a woman, I'm happier when I pursue. Make of it what you will, I don't know how else to make this point about men and women.

Applying that to dating, let me address the idea of cultural norms. Masculinity and femininity are defined mostly culturally, so not everything associated with both ideas, traditionally, is necessarily rationally correct. Dating, on the other hand, is very practical. You don't need to do it to get to know someone well, but most of the time it is the best way. If you meet someone and are attracted to them, you'd want to have more time to know each other better, so you go do things with them. You make time for this. It's called dating. How is it boring?

Really? I've been on dates with girls I was sort of attracted to, but not ultimately interested in. It was still fun to share thoughts with them, do fun things, and flirt a little. It's not a big deal. In fact, the cultural norm is that dating is a super serious affair all the time. That I disagree with.

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bluecherry,

Thanks for the thoughtful response, I don't want you to mistake my 'chauvinism' for aggression because I'm enjoying the conversation very much.

I have to think that your 'interview' idea is basically what you do when you date. It's one way of dating. I would prefer time to get to know a person a little more extensively before getting 'tied down' in a relationship, but essentially, I would do so through 'extended mutual interviews'. It's like having a relationship without having the committment. I think it's good to be able to enjoy someone else's company as you get to know them without having to be attached to them, or without having to wonder how hand holding, kissing, etc. will affect your rational appraisal/enjoyment of that person's company. It's a way of getting maximum value out of relationships with people, in my view.

I totally sympathize with the idea that my version of dating is nerve-wracking! But that's just the price of trying to live rationally with a host of animal urges. That's a particularly crude way of putting it, and I'm probably conjuring ideas that are rather undesirable in you head, so let me explain before that goes too far. I think even the desire to be loved, to be held, to be paid attention to by the opposite sex - we culturally categorize these feelings as beautiful while culturally the 'other' feelings that are associated with disgusting men are considered crude. I definitely think that there is an order to feelings with some being properly reserved for certain situations and others reserved for others. My point is that even the 'beautiful' "I want to be held" feelings are natural - of the body.

So, in dating, you might really like the person and there might be this feeling of "would he just put his arm around me already" which is tremendously physically frustrating. I'm not advocating some puritanical view of dating, but in the context of the post I'm saying that this frustrating form of dating is good sometimes. When I was dating 4 girls that time in mentioned, I had a screaming desire to put my arm around each one each time (and trust me, it was my downfall). But doing so would mean giving up the other 3 girls, so to speak. And after about 4-5 dates with each, I just wasn't ready to cash in, because I wasn't certain that the value I was trading in for was worth more than those I'd be giving up. If I had acted more rationally, I would have waited a bit longer, and settled on the girl I liked the most. Maybe one of the girls would have stopped dating me after becoming exclusive with someone else, maybe I'd lose interest in one in particular.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but bear with me. If you met a guy you were attracted to, and he started pursuing you persistently - but in a tone and at a pace that was comfortable to you - wouldn't you like that? My experience based chauvinism tells me you'd eventually get frustrated and would just want him to tell you he likes you already - even if you don't necessarily want to end up being exclusive with him.

That's the nature of my 'traditionalism'. I think women can be as rational as men in their romantic decisions, I just think that women like it when guys put themselves out romatically more so than men. I don't think I know of many men who are more than marginally flattered when a woman puts herself out for him. But they love it when women hint, and invite them to pursuit. Generally. It could be deeply ingrained cultural norms, but I think it's probably fairly biological. And man is a rational animal.

I trust you that you wouldn't manipulate a man. I was exaggerating in that sense - about manipulation - to make the point. I'm fine with your proposition of wanting to know of other relationships, and the guy's dating habits in general. That's a good thing to know about someone! I have to highlight that you wouldn't want to know the identities of the girl's he's dating. That's what's important to me.

I think that a man needs to let a woman know, in romance, that she is the only object of his affections - while she is. If a guy spends all his date with girl B thinking of girl A, he shouldn't probably even date girl B. But under no circumstances should he mention his relationship with girl A because that wastes girl B's time completely. She is on a date with him to pursue/develop romance, and inasmuch as she deserves his affection, she should receive it. Hearing of his affection for another woman specifically would completely devalue her in that situation. Bad bad bad!! I'm sure I've done it lots of times in the past, but it's not good!

As for dating in general, also in response to Eioul - having a friend or colleague that you spend time with doesn't make something a date. Dates are paired-off, pursuing romance events. Inasmuch as you want to pursue romance, do so - the times you do are called dates. Inasmuch as you are pursuing something else, these are not dates. Romance doesn't need to be googly-eyes or kissing, it can be affectionate glances, courteous gestures, sincerity in discussing self, showing interest in the other person's virtue as a member of the opposite sex, etc. It's not complicated, and it's only boring if you are dating someone you aren't interested in.

And I'm not trying to exclude gay people - but as I have said, I speak as a man, and a heterosexual at that. I can't speak faithfully as something else especially when it comes to romance.

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Personally at least, your sort of dating doesn't appeal to me still for reasons I've already explained. I see no benefit to me in doing something that's like a lukewarm combination of my two preferred methods, but ending up losing the strengths of both, being slower and less thoroughly informative than an interview and less convenient and with less established history built up first than getting know them other ways before dating. The result of your kind of dating, to me, would just be not particularly informative, slow, and awkward.

If I could tell somebody I was confident was right for me felt the same for me, I wouldn't hang around waiting to see what they'd do, I'd immediately jump on sealing the deal with them myself. :confused: No point I could imagine in waiting any longer normally.

No really, you're not getting it. I DO want to know much about the other females themselves too (and/or males too if he isn't strictly heterosexual) and what they do together. Not just his habits, I'd like to know about the others as people too. I'm curious and would enjoy hearing about it and have no nefarious intents on what I'd do with the information. I'd just listen and enjoy. Talking about the other people doesn't have to mean you don't like me anymore if those are other people being dated than if they were just friends or relatives of yours. I wouldn't feel devalued, I'd appreciate being informed of that part of what is going on in their life too.

I was more or less just trying to say that just being alone with a person at all couldn't be a sufficient criteria to count as dating.

Also, I generally disagree with assertions made in your post to Eiuol. Perhaps you feel happier with things a certain way for whatever reason, but you don't have a case really in that post for it being true for others. :confused:

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Zsorenson, your problem is simple.

You think you are a rational animal who has to deal with animal urges.

There are no such things as 'animal urges' in human being, end of story.

Drop that mistaken idea and you'll soon realize that there's nothing making you date more than one woman at the same time, just your belief in your mistaken belief.

EDIT:

There is no such thing as the desire to be loved. It is not an instinct that all humans have, as evinced by many people who loathe themselves and do not feel worthy of love. Feeling worthy of love, rationally, means feeling worthy of being loved by the right person. Love from someone you only half-love is not the same as love from someone you deeply admire and respect and love, they hold two totally different estimations in your mind.

Decide which woman you love more, and get rid of the other one. This means you need to sort out your own values first. Frankly, you're not ready to date any woman seriously until you know what you want of a partner; that's the whole reason you're in this situation, you're confused about what you want. I suggest taking time to sit down and seriously consider what you want in a partner, totally irrespective of the relationships you're in. Make a list. Read it, think about it. Then come back to these two women and maybe then you'll know which one is right for you.

Edited by Krattle

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