Prelude to civil war

[th3ranger]

Greetings komrades! First I would like to mention that if you are looking for a good copy of the Obama/joker poster, I have it saved on my computer and I will put it at the end of my post.

This week we have witnessed the anger of common citizens over the health care bill and it's blatant violation of our rights. Representatives and Senators have suddenly stopped answering questions or even having a town meeting at all! There are cases of town halls' audience's being stacked in favor of health care before anyone else can enter. One would question the point of even bothering to have a town hall meeting of people that agree with you, but that is apparently the state of politics today.

What's especially strange about this all is the looter's insistence that all the protests are fake. Why would it even matter if all the protests are "AstroTurf?" Is it no longer permissible to protest in this country? Is assembling in large numbers over some issue wrong now? This is very close to an attempt to shut down free speech. I would say this is normal and expected, but this is not an election year. This is very, very, scary.

I have some reasons why I think that this could be politically, a powder keg situation.

Both sides believe in using force to achieve their goals, one, in using it to make everyone believe in knowledge without perception, the other to make us all "equal" and by that I mean punish all achievers of any worth what-so-ever. The worst part is that both sides see themselves as righteous in their violation individual rights and the opposition as evil. As often happens in history, both are evil, and neither have any idea as to what is right and moral might even actually be.

What I see as a possibility of happening is some kind of violence at the hands of either some union goon or some armed security officer "guarding" a congressman. All that is needed for national strife is a spark of violence involving death or maiming. All that has to happen is the government to be seen oppressing the people with violence for speaking out.

Get ready, buy some bullets for self-defense (and a gun for that matter), because it all seems to already be starting

note: I am attempting to improve my writing style, if you have some advice, please PM me.

[fountainhead777]

Interesting and alarming. also joker/Obama poster link? you said you'd post it and I'm kinda curious to get a good look at this thing that created so much controversy.

[th3ranger]

Interesting and alarming. also joker/Obama poster link? you said you'd post it and I'm kinda curious to get a good look at this thing that created so much controversy.

You can't see it? I guess the link didn't work. I'll post another.

[Beckarr]

"I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to just get out of the way so we can clean up the mess."

-Obama in your link

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dont-want-th...lot-of-talking/

I find it very irritating that he has the gall to tell the private health care industry and private insurance companies to "get out of the way". If government would just get the hell out of the way then prices would fall and more people would get health care. Is there any way to show someone like this the mistake of their thinking? Why can't we have a full on multiple hour debate between Leonard Peikoff and Barack Obama?

[Chris.S]

Probably for the same reason Roark never had a full-on debate with Toohey.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

And to look at it from the other end... why should the most powerful man in the world drop everything he is doing to spend time debating a guy who has a following of perhaps ten to fifty thousand people?

There is a rule in politics--if you are *way* ahead of your opponent in the polls, you shouldn't bother to debate him because it legitimizes and publicizes him and also gives you an opportunity to commit a gaffe, all with nothing to gain from it.

Add to it the fact that once Obama actually notices Objectivism he is liable to think of it as a threat. And once he sees LP or Yaron Brook speak as part of his "prep," he will be worried about getting his ass kicked in a debate without his teleprompters' help.

As much as I would like to see LP or Yaron Brook clean this clown's clock in a debate, it won't be happening any time soon.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Is there any way to show someone like this the mistake of their thinking?

Also, you are assuming Obama *wants* to fix healthcare, instead of simply using the current problem as an excuse to seize control of it.

[DavidOdden]

Why can't we have a full on multiple hour debate between Leonard Peikoff and Barack Obama?

Because Obama is unwilling to engage in a serious discussion of the intellectual issues.

[Zip]

Because Obama is unwilling to engage in a serious discussion of the intellectual issues.

This is kind of funny in a sad sort of way. I mean when was the last time that two politicians had a "serious discussion of the intellectual issues" on anything.

Every time a politician opens his cake-hole the only thing that is coming out is pre-packaged, programmed and spun doctrine of their political party.

The sadder part is that most people would not listen to an honest debate because they too have been fed the same talking points.

Politics as a profession is a shadow of what it was when our countries were created and honest men engaged in the exchange of ideas based on principle and the statesman's lot was considered honourable.

[Beckarr]

I think that they could make it work if Leonard Peikoff or Yaron Brook made a public challenge to debate the intellectual issues of health care with Obama. That way, all the unrest in the populace over the proposed health care could see the objectivist viewpoint as a key to overcoming the statist's.

Why did Roark never have a full-on debate with Toohey again?

Publicly call out Obama's health care proposal for what it is and offer the real solution of cutting back on government intervention and then have a debate about it. Peikoff and Brook could clearly show the foundations of metaphysics, epistemology and ethics that lead to free market capitalism and they could ask Obama to clearly lay out his metaphysics, epistemology and ethics that lead to his proposal for health care. Then call him out when he will desperately try to evade the question in any way possible. If this was set up in a forum where both would be safe from possible assassination, televised along with having independent, free people able to record it with their own cameras so they can show it unedited and they had ample time to respond without the other person interrupting them then I think it would be great for advancing the objectivist philosophy in today's world.

[SD26]

Also, you are assuming Obama *wants* to fix healthcare, instead of simply using the current problem as an excuse to seize control of it.

Completely agreed. The VA and Medicare/Medicaid have never been what they were sold as. They are bloated, expensive items that have huge costs and don't pay value for value. It is the Cloward-Piven Strategy to force political change through orchestrated crisis.

[Alexandros]

This is kind of funny in a sad sort of way. I mean when was the last time that two politicians had a "serious discussion of the intellectual issues" on anything.

Every time a politician opens his cake-hole the only thing that is coming out is pre-packaged, programmed and spun doctrine of their political party.

The sadder part is that most people would not listen to an honest debate because they too have been fed the same talking points.

Politics as a profession is a shadow of what it was when our countries were created and honest men engaged in the exchange of ideas based on principle and the statesman's lot was considered honourable.

There is a recent book that deals with how this came about. If you're interested, here a link to some info: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Birth...5312874/?itm=25

It will be my next read, after "1776" by David McCullough.

[Mister A]

The Joker meme is disturbingly accurate. The way he agitates divisiveness and political violence reminds me of the boat scene from Dark Knight.

[khaight]

Why did Roark never have a full-on debate with Toohey again?

Roark explained that explicitly and succinctly in the novel, when Toohey asked what Roark thought of him. Roark's reply: "But I don't think of you." For that matter, Galt didn't bother debating Mr. Thompson either -- he just took over his time and laid out his own ideas.

Whether those literary events are proper models for intellectual activism in our present context I leave as an exercise for the reader.

[The Lonely Rationalist]

This is getting really ridiculous.

The Speaker of the House calls the protesters Un-American.

A protester has received threats against his family for speaking up during a townhall meeting.

There have been incidents of violence.

The SEIU has told it's members to "Drown Out" opposing voices

And leftists has called those who disagree with them "Nazis," "Racists," and "Political Terrorists."

I'm incredibly angry about all this. I'm even more angry that the American people aren't seeing what's happening right in front of their faces.

[khaight]

I'm incredibly angry about all this. I'm even more angry that the American people aren't seeing what's happening right in front of their faces.

More and more Americans *are* seeing what's happening, and they don't like it. Unfortunately many of them lack the words and ideas to identify exactly what it is that they don't like. That's an opportunity for those of us who do have the words and ideas to help them by calling this what it is: the rise of fascism in America, with the SEIU playing the role of the brownshirts.

[TheEgoist]

This is getting really ridiculous.

The Speaker of the House calls the protesters Un-American.

A protester has received threats against his family for speaking up during a townhall meeting.

There have been incidents of violence.

The SEIU has told it's members to "Drown Out" opposing voices

And leftists has called those who disagree with them "Nazis," "Racists," and "Political Terrorists."

I'm incredibly angry about all this. I'm even more angry that the American people aren't seeing what's happening right in front of their faces.

The people at these town hall meetings are rarely giving any rational argument and I don't respect very men of them at all. And they use the term "Nazi" and "Eugenics" as much as the nutty Leftists did on Bush and Co.

[TheEgoist]

THIS is not the right way to support individual rights.

[The Lonely Rationalist]

Well, Egoist, a few examples does not a movement make.

As for the fact that they aren't making any rational argument, I agree. However, they are mostly average people. They know something's wrong, just not what. As long as they aren't opposing Obama's plan for any immoral reason (Religious, for example), then I'm fine with the protests.

The fact that these people, who are mostly helpless philosophically, but are struggling against statism, are being demonized and physically assaulted should be enough to make anyone mad.

No offense, but I think Charles Johnson has got his "Moderate" claws in you a bit.

Edited August 11, 2009 by The Lonely Rationalist

[TheEgoist]

Here's a reasonable guy to some extent, who did a very stupid thing to make himself look like a nut.

[softwareNerd]

Here's a reasonable guy to some extent, who did a very stupid thing to make himself look like a nut.

Carrying a gun to an event where the U.S. president is going to speak!

It takes far less to get the secret service interested. For instance, one guy got a call after he posted New Hampshire's motto ("Live Free or Die") as part of an anti-Obama comment to a newspaper article. A commenter who disagreed called the secret-service. How that could be taken as even the semblance of a threat, worthy of any follow-up by them, beats me.

[themadkat]

Well, Egoist, a few examples does not a movement make.

As for the fact that they aren't making any rational argument, I agree. However, they are mostly average people. They know something's wrong, just not what. As long as they aren't opposing Obama's plan for any immoral reason (Religious, for example), then I'm fine with the protests.

The fact that these people, who are mostly helpless philosophically, but are struggling against statism, are being demonized and physically assaulted should be enough to make anyone mad.

No offense, but I think Charles Johnson has got his "Moderate" claws in you a bit.

I have to stick up for Egoist a bit here. I'm as against the healthcare plan as anyone else here but a lot of these town hall protesters and teaparty guys are only making the rest of us look as nuts as they are. Shouting and flailing are not rational arguments. I have yet to hear a reasoned, intelligent question from one of the protesters that made the news. This does not help us. We need to fight this with ideas, not just try to shout down the other side. Not only does this bring us down to the level of the other side, we cannot and will not beat them at their own game.

I sympathize with the NH guy and having lived in NH it's not terribly uncommon (depending on where you are) for people to open-carry. What he did should not have been a big deal and it was perfectly legal. But he did not come off well on Chris Matthews and, though I don't want to ascribe fault to him because I really don't think he did anything wrong, he did hurt the image of opposition to healthcare because of that appearance.

I'm not even sure what to do anymore honestly. We're getting so far away from a free-market in healthcare or almost anything else really. And just in time for ObamaCare I'm about to drop into the ranks of the uninsured myself, though only temporarily.

[softwareNerd]

I have yet to hear a reasoned, intelligent question from one of the protesters that made the news.

That's probably because only the man-bites-dog visuals make the news.

Yesterday, I saw about 30 minutes of one town-hall meeting (a senator in Maryland). While there was some disruptive cheering and jeering, almost everyone who took the mike was extremely "normal". Yes, many were emotional, but none were looney. It is not necessary for everyone of them to make a "professorial" reasoned argument, as long as they say something from which their reasons can easily be gleaned by a typical voter. For instance, one guy said "you expect me to believe that the government can run this huge system cheaper than it is currently run... are you kidding me?" In my book, that qualifies as a decent town-hall comment.

Also, up to a point (i.e. if not seen as crazy), heightened emotionalism and hyperbole works to increase the sense of fear of any new proposed plan.

The biggest thing Obama has going for him is that a vast majority of people who work in media genuinely think the U.S. has a health care crisis, and genuinely think that the government ought to do something about it.

Edited August 12, 2009 by softwareNerd

[themadkat]

Recently I saw coverage of a town hall meeting in Iowa and was pleasantly surprised that people were able to discuss things in a reasonable manner. No one was shouting anyone down. So maybe it is getting better.

That's probably because only the man-bites-dog visuals make the news.

Yesterday, I saw about 30 minutes of one town-hall meeting (a senator in Maryland). While there was some disruptive cheering and jeering, almost everyone who took the mike was extremely "normal". Yes, many were emotional, but none were looney. It is not necessary for everyone of them to make a "professorial" reasoned argument, as long as they say something from which their reasons can easily be gleaned by a typical voter. For instance, one guy said "you expect me to believe that the government can run this huge system cheaper than it is currently run... are you kidding me?" In my book, that qualifies as a decent town-hall comment.

Also, up to a point (i.e. if not seen as crazy), heightened emotionalism and hyperbole works to increase the sense of fear of any new proposed plan.

The biggest thing Obama has going for him is that a vast majority of people who work in media genuinely think the U.S. has a health care crisis, and genuinely think that the government ought to do something about it.

[The Lonely Rationalist]

Here's a reasonable guy to some extent, who did a very stupid thing to make himself look like a nut.

Amen. What a moronic thing to do.

Also, at least one of those pictures you linked (The one of Obama with a Hitler mustache) is actually being used by a left-wing organization who thinks Obama isn't going far enough in his health care plan.

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=Gdnz4zprSU

Skip ahead to the 1:45 mark to see.