Trying to Rent a New Apartment

[Chris.S]

So I arrived back in Toronto last Saturday, and have been sleeping at a cousin's place until I find my own apartment. I've been looking at 2-3 apartments a day since Sunday, but haven't seen anything I like until today.

I really, REALLY want this apartment. Nice area, lots of space, 2 rooms even (it was listed as 1 bedroom), 750/month, utilities included. Basically, the place is awesome for my wife and I until I finish school.

The problem is that as I was filling out the rental application, another person came to see the apartment, and it was quite easy to see that she liked it, and she asked to fill out an application as well. So I finished my application, and chatted with the landlady a bit, explaining my situation and how long we want to live there, and then left.

What I would like to ask is this: how do I sweeten this deal for the landlady such that if our credit check passes (which it will), that I am first in line to get the apartment ahead of others whose credit has passed? I thought of offering $50 extra per month, and my wife had the idea of offering 6months payment up front, rather than the usual 2.

Would either of these ideas turn off a landlord to a potential tenant? I can't see how a landlord would turn down more money, but maybe it seems too desperate, or inappropriate or that we might be underhanded folks?

I just really want this F'ing apartment and am willing to pay more, even if it's a little over my budget.

[softwareNerd]

I don't think the landlady will think an offer of more rent is inappropriate.

However, if I were you, before I made any specific offer I would ask her she where she stood. Basically ask her how she will decide. Often people (on the other side of a bargaining table) will willingly tell you stuff that you are only trying to guess. Sales people call it "probing". Many people are uncomfortable asking questions, because they think they're prying. However, it isn't really; not if the questions are relevant to your prospective deal. So, go ahead and ask how she will decide if someone else is also interested in the same apartment at the same rent.

A little probing will probably tell you whether it is worth making a better offer, and whether just a little is required to tip her in your favor. You can have a couple of offers ready: one that is cheaper to you and another that is a little higher. You already listed two. There's also a way you can make an offer from which you benefit. Without knowing the situation, I can't talk to specifics. Suppose the dish-washer is old, you can offer to buy a brand new (really silent) one on the understanding that she'll own it and it'll be a plus for the next tenant. [Of course, you need to ensure such expenditure will be below the money-offers, and also what will give you the most value as a resident.]

[D'kian]

What I would like to ask is this: how do I sweeten this deal for the landlady such that if our credit check passes (which it will), that I am first in line to get the apartment ahead of others whose credit has passed? I thought of offering $50 extra per month, and my wife had the idea of offering 6months payment up front, rather than the usual 2.

I'd be wary of offering more money per month. You might wind up in a bidding war with the other tenant without even knoeing it (of course the same aplies if the other tenant first amkes an offer, or if the landlady thinks of it herself).

I agree with softwareNerd's advice: ask. Money might not be her uppermost concern. Maybe she preffers a tenant that won't giver her trouble, or one who is quiet, or one who never misses a payment, etc.

Also consider the state of the rental market overall.

[softwareNerd]

Perhaps not the case with your prospective landlady, but this reminded me of...

In the book "Influence", the author gives an example of someone trying to sell a car (I think). If two people were interested, the seller would schedule them so that the first one would be just about leaving while the second one was arriving, and the second might even have to wait a bit. The two prospects, seeing the competition, would perceive themselves to be in a weaker bargaining position. It was a way of making the notion of "I have someone else who is interested" very concrete.

[Chris.S]

I took your advice as I went to look at another apartment, snerd. It was just as nice as the previous place, but farther from public transit and apparently the current tenants are moving out due to the upstairs tenants making too much noise. I wasn't really interested in getting it, but decided to ask anyways, how the landlord would make his decision if 2 or more tenants were up for the apartment. He basically responded with a first come, first served answer. But then I put it out there that if a prospective tenant were to offer more money if that would help the decision process, and he said no. He actually chuckled and said they usuyally try to bargain the price down.

Hopefully the 1st landlady is more responsive to carrots. I'll call and see how her decision is shaping up tomorrow I'll try and see if maybe they need some help gardening or yardwork (they're a little old), or with their accupuncture business upstairs. As far as I can tell, rentals for my price range are few, and of those few, most are in the older areas of the city. Poorly renovated basements with little light and even less head space (4 out of 6 houses so far have had ceilings between 5'8" and 6'). I know that's part of the territory of what I'm paying, and that's why I don't understand why an awesome place like this is going for 750, when others in it's range are really shitty. And so I'm willing to offer more money or more anything to get it.

Hey snerd, does the book tell how a buyer can stay out of that trap, or is it more like "here's a sales tactic; now that you know you're armed against it" type thing?

[Greebo]

I don't think the landlady will think an offer of more rent is inappropriate.

As a landlord, if I had two prospective tenants lined up, and they both wanted my only available apartment, I'd be quite happy to be offered more rent to settle the matter.

[LandonWalsh]

Use Craigslist. Thats all I have to say.

[Chris.S]

Craigslist isn't that great anymore. Every other ad is a scam out of Nigeria, and the rest aren't very good anyways.

[LandonWalsh]

Craigslist isn't that great anymore. Every other ad is a scam out of Nigeria, and the rest aren't very good anyways.

Really? lol... I'm from fayetteville Arkansas and im on there all the time. I got my Ninja 650r from craigslist, my job, and apartment. All good deals.

I'm about to sell my 2007 cobalt for 7k on there. Never see the Nigerian scams.

Edited August 27, 2009 by LandonWalsh

[Zip]

Poorly renovated basements with little light and even less head space (4 out of 6 houses so far have had ceilings between 5'8" and 6').

According to the Ontario Building code in order for a place to be considered residential living space the ceiling height of 75% of the living room and 50% of the bedroom has to be over 7'7"

[exaltron]

I took your advice as I went to look at another apartment, snerd. It was just as nice as the previous place, but farther from public transit and apparently the current tenants are moving out due to the upstairs tenants making too much noise. I wasn't really interested in getting it, but decided to ask anyways, how the landlord would make his decision if 2 or more tenants were up for the apartment. He basically responded with a first come, first served answer. But then I put it out there that if a prospective tenant were to offer more money if that would help the decision process, and he said no. He actually chuckled and said they usuyally try to bargain the price down.

Hopefully the 1st landlady is more responsive to carrots. I'll call and see how her decision is shaping up tomorrow I'll try and see if maybe they need some help gardening or yardwork (they're a little old), or with their accupuncture business upstairs. As far as I can tell, rentals for my price range are few, and of those few, most are in the older areas of the city. Poorly renovated basements with little light and even less head space (4 out of 6 houses so far have had ceilings between 5'8" and 6'). I know that's part of the territory of what I'm paying, and that's why I don't understand why an awesome place like this is going for 750, when others in it's range are really shitty. And so I'm willing to offer more money or more anything to get it.

Hey snerd, does the book tell how a buyer can stay out of that trap, or is it more like "here's a sales tactic; now that you know you're armed against it" type thing?

I can only speak from a Northeast perspective, but in my experience landlords don't usually choose based on offers of upping the monthly rent. I've been a renter for 15 years and I can say having talked to some of my landlords personally, they are much more interested in securing someone who is going to pay the rent on time and not screw up the apartment. If you think about it, this makes sense- the potential of an extra $600/yr vs. the risk of a deadbeat tenant (in the US it can take months to evict a tenant, no matter how atrocious they are) who may be destroying your property while refusing to pay the rent.

The other issue with upping the rent is that the price the landlord sets is probably based on much more info than you will have as a newcomer. You have no way of knowing what kind of issues the apartment will have (chronic plumbing problems, heating, AC, leaks through the ceiling etc- I've experienced all these). So you may end up paying much more than the apartment is actually worth in the long run and have no way of renegotiating.

On the other hand, offering to pay several months' rent upfront can be very effective. In NYC most landlords and brokers will say you have to have a minimum verifiable income and/or a guarantor to even be in the running. However I've talked to several people who were able to get around this by just plunking down a wad of cash. Again the logic is pretty simple: if you have a wad of cash saved up, you most likely are not totally worthless, as opposed to someone who is chronically broke and is therefore probably less likely to find a job.

Hope that helps, although I'm guessing you are probably past the point of needing such advice.. Best of luck to you!!

[K-Mac]

You could try offering her a longer lease. Landlords hate going through the process of finding good tenants. If she already likes you and you're willing to sign an 18-24 month lease, that may seal the deal. Like sNerd said, I would talk to her about the status, though, before you offer any additional money/rent.

[Chris.S]

According to the Ontario Building code in order for a place to be considered residential living space the ceiling height of 75% of the living room and 50% of the bedroom has to be over 7'7"

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I'll have to look up the relevant parts of the Code when I get my books out of storage, but any regulation is only as good as the ministry's ability to enforce it. Inspector's are few and expensive, and are usually only used when people are buying a house. And if I had the money to dish out on an inspection, I wouldn't be renting.

Toronto is also large enough that many contractor's can operate without building permits, and even more people are DIY-ers. Families converting a basement into an apartment are probably trying to make some extra money to pay their mortgage, and would want to save as much as they can by hiring clandestine contractors and not getting inspectors. Especially in these 60-100 year old homes where the basements are only around 5ft deep. If they were to really bring them up to the 7'7" Code, they'd have to underpin the walls and dig out the floors, which would require a legit contractor (because the unlicensed contractors aren't stupid enough to attempt that), an engineer and an inspector.

I'm not going to rat people out for trying to make a bit more money out of their property. From what I've studied of the Code so far, much of it can be arbitrary (7'7" ceilings, or doorknobs being X minimum height, or percentage of wall composed of windows facing the street) and contradictory or misleading between other parts of itself (can't think of an example right now, but it mostly has to do with wording of clauses governing similar parts of the building in different sections). Some of it is based on "normal" engineering practices (such as strength and placement of beams and columns, or how many screws needed joining 2 boards). I think you can agree that the Code is unjust and unnecessary when it tries to regulate dealings between contractors and owners.

Thanks for the advice though, everybody. I will definitely keep it all in mind as my search continues (if it continues) and in the future if I continue to rent.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Chris.S