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Support for Israel

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I first became interested in Objectivism because of a love interest. I remember that one of the major reservations I had about Objectivists is their support of Israel given their views on other matters. For instance, Objectivism decries collectivism but I saw Israel as essentially being a collectivist state where most if not all people thought that they were the "chosen people". My understanding at the time was that Israel made it mandatory for its citizens of a certain age to serve in the military (essentially they had a draft system if I am not mistaken). Not to mention the fact that certain religious groups are exempt from military service. I supported Israel but I was puzzled as to why Objectivists did. I am happy to report that now I have a clearer Idea why. I am forgot the other issues that I had because now they have all been discredited (in my mind).

Why do you personally support (or not support) Israel?

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It seems to me that people do not "support israel" unequivocably (just as a patriotic american does not necessarilly love everything about America or the American Government)

Instead it seems that people are unequivocably supporting the government of israel to the extent that it implements Objectivist Principles (for instance, I would suspect that most objectivists would support Israel's commitment to self defense, but would probably reject the idea of a "jewish state")

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It seems to me that people do not "support israel" unequivocably

Of course we don't support everything that Israel does. Israel isn't the perfect Objectivist society--if it were, I would be an Israeli citizen.

But if you ask me whether I support Israel or the "Palestinians," I will unhesitatingly and unequivocally answer "Israel."

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I concur. The issue centers around not Israel itself, but the Israel vs. Palestine conflict. In any war of agression, one side is generally acting in self-defense. The other, an agressor. In studying the nature of this conflict, we see that Palestine a virtually a total dictatorship, and its motives for attack are not in the spirit of anything right or just (like freedom) but a claim to land based on irational beliefs. Israel on the other hand, is acting in defense of its right to live as a free nation, to the extent that it IS free.

Israel is moving progressively down the road to capitalism, bit by bit. Palestine, conversely, is despotic and shows no sign of changing that. No palestinians have risen against Arafat and all are united in hatred of Jews. So, in this case, we are looking at a matter of degrees. Israel is many degrees closer to capitalism than Palestine.

Also, Israel's war is the same kind of war we are fighting: a war aggainst terror. Failure to support Israel would be hypocritical. Unfortunately, our government is failing to see this simple logic. ;)

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"palestinians...all are united in hatred of Jews."New Intellectual.

Generally when one makes a Generalized statement about all the members of a group of people whose group status is not voluntary, one is inaccurate. I know palestinians that are not like that at all.

Failure to acknowledge that people in a group etc have differing levels of responsibility for particular acts , differing views etcc is a mistake that terrorists make.(its not the only mistake that terrorists make but its one of them)

I would not necessarilly disagree with an assertion that most palestinians hold pregidous against Jews...(It would be nice to have evidence to back that up, but not completely necessarry since I seem to recall a poll along those lines, and also because gallup has difficulty running around the area what with all the suicide attacks and such )

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Generally when one makes a Generalized statement about all the members of a group of people whose group status is not voluntary, one is inaccurate. I know palestinians that are not like that at all.

I know they are not all like that, either.

That's because many of those who don't hate Jews and America have fled Palestine and emigrated to here, with some difficulty.

I actually work with client representatives who actually revealed to me that they are Palestinian, and they tell me stories about how difficult it is to get visas, and to obtain citizenship.

Those that I do know personally who happen to be Palestinian have made a serious attempt to assimilate into the American way of life. ;)

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Because they are fighting to defend their culture of reason, rights, and productivity against a culture of mysticism, fanaticism, poverty, jealousy, and terrorism.

These are qualities I would associate with certain elements of the Israeli state. Judaism is certainly rooted in mysticism, kabala anybody? and its milaristic policy - its cutting off of peoples lands, their source of a living is tantamount to terrorism.

I cannot advocate the Palestians a great deal, I cannot advocate Islam - but I do not support Israel either, I do not support Zionism, Sharon or have much time for Jewish culture.

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The issue centers around not Israel itself, but the Israel vs. Palestine conflict. 

I am an Israeli citizen(living in Israel... :( ), I was born to a Jewish family, and I am an objectivist (and therefore, an atheist).

Many times, I found myself pondering- why does ARI support Israel? I don't... But I see now the reason- the context is Israel vs. Palestine, plus the fact that "In any war of aggression, one side is generally acting in self-defense. The other, an aggressor." This is true.

ARI is not supporting Israel for the right reasons, except for the argument that it is self-defense.

Let me tell you something about Israel- it's far routs are mystics, religious- the best justification for the holding of these lands is because "god intended the lands to us.” Religion is all over this place- do you know it's illegal here to open your business on Saturdays and holidays(unless for national needs)?; public transportation doesn't work here too in these cases; you cannot legally raise pigs unless in a non-Jewish area(like Arabic villages). (These are only a few examples)

Israel’s' close routs are communists- Hertzel's dream(as described in his book "Alt Noilend"- The Jewish Country) is a European like country, a welfare country. Israel is the only place on earth that formed a formal settlement that was a collective- the meaning of the word Kibbutz is A Collective.

I don't think that this stuff shows on CNN, but there's this woman here called Vicki Knafo, she's an unemployed single mom. About a year ago, she decided to walk(walk, like Forest Gump) from her home to the Israeli congress(HaKneset) in Jerusalem. she wanted more money from the state. This woman became a culture hero, she swapped the country with its "elite" intellectuals, on her t-shirt she wrote- "A mother's cry.” Now she's doing it again(now it's says "The Cry 2,” for real :blink: ), walking to Sharon’s' private country home!

I am 18 years old. Do you know I had to declare myself insane in order to escape the hands of the military?

My point is... Capitalism? reason? Individual rights? Productivity?- NOT!

Edited by GreedyCapitalist

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I am an Israely citizen(living in Israel...  :blink:  ), I was born to a jewish family, I'm an objectivist(and therefor, an atheist).

.......My point is... Capitalism? reason? Individual rights? Productivity?- NOT!

I'll try to approach this with as open a mind as possible.

By asking you questions.

Are your citizens allowed to purchase and hold property?

I take note of the fact that you actually had a chief of state who was a woman, something we've yet to see here in America. Are women viewed by the government as equally entitled to rights as men?

Are your citizens allowed to establish and run businesses in the same regards as they are in America?

And what about Productivity? Seems to be the infrastructure in Israel is rock solid, as opposed to that in neighboring Arab countries. As I peruse the Internet regarding Israel I note the construction of modern railways, housing, and the constant conversion of desert into arable land. Where do you see this in the Arab world in such a large scale?

When I was student I became aware of the kibbutz from a fellow student who spent a year in Israel in a kibbutz. I thought the kibbutz, a collective, was a lifestyle option in Israel, not based upon government mandate.

The realities of modern Israel appear to contradict much of what you have posted here.

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Are your citizens allowed to purchase and hold property?

Did you know that there is no such thing as private lands in Israel? All lands belong to the "state". When an Israely citizen tells you he bought a private house with a land in a village, for exapmle, what actually took place is that he leased the land, it can never be his. The only reall private lands in Israely teritory are lands owned by people before Israel became a country.

Israel is in "Temporary emergency" since 1948- did you know that? It allows the government to do outrageous things. Do you know that lands today are being nationalized in order to build the separation fence? What do you expect from a country with no constitution? Did you know that in Israel, Individual rights are acknowledged in the form of "basic-rules" (that are supposed to be stronger than regular rules) that can be changed or ignored if the majority of politicians at a certain point in time vote on it?

The Israely government has the power to nationalize any property it pleases(it doesn't do so often because the international community would probably condemn it). Instead of doing this, it just milks businesses out of money :blink: - a recent example:

A very succeful company in Israel named Tnuva(producing mostly dairy products) was expectedly making A LOT of money, so The Department of Industry and Commerce announced it as a monopsony. This company therefor became a victim of a new amendment for what is called here "The restrictions law" regarding the business world. This means, for examples, that Tnuva must buy products or servises from whomever offers to sell them to it, even if it means losing money(like on delivery costs of milk from remote dairy). The aim of this whole spectacle, btw, was to prevent Tnuva from refusing to buy goods from suppliers that sold to its big contester- Straus.

Look, the examples are pilling up, all it takes is to open the business section of the big newspapers everyday.

The reason that Israels' average life quality is high and modern is because there are so many great minds in the business world in here and becuase it has a vast relation to other countries. This doesn't mean anything. Sure, there are great big railroads in Israel, but there's only "Israel Trains", owned by the government. You want another example- in Israel, there only The Israely Post Office- and it sucks! It's illegal to start a delivery service in Israel.

As for the Kibutz- it's a settlement acknowledged like a City or a village here(only communist in nature). You don't have to live there, but that only goes to show you(considering the fact that this is the symbol of the 'Israely Tzabar'- The reall Israely, Israely in blood) what the Israely ideaology is all about- Socialism, Collectivism. This is what it is, take from somebody raised in the heart of it. If you don't believe it- watch the Independence Day national ceremony on TV(if u can put your hand on it), of any year, you'll get the sense of it- it's sickening.

As for the Arabic society in Israel, the thing is that formaly, they are much worst than the Israely society, they are much more religiously fanatics, they are primitives(Not making any generalizations, I'm speaking of the majority,I know some wonderful Arabic people), The concept of Individual rights does not exist in the Palestinian society. My point wasn't that we are worst or equal to that. My point is that the reasons for the moral support on Israel are not the right ones.

The fact that you as a ruler don't terrorise all of your citizens all the time, doesn't make you good. Even if you build them fancy roads and buildings, this doesn't make you good. Even if you don't harass them all the time, the fact is that not only are you not good- you are bad. See my point?

Oh, and to answer your question about women- they are legally equal to men, of course. That doesn't mean anything. Doesn't change my point.

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AutoJC -

The phrase is on a large scale.

Farming communes in Israel are, like farming communes in America, not by mandate.

d180586 -

American anti-trust law can and is used in the same ways, and the American government has all but given up on respecting any of the individual moral and legal rights stated in the Constitution (replacing them with privacy and racism).

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Capitalism Forever

Perhaps you should concentrate you efforts, supporting internal government reforms in israel rather than advocating the current leaderships foreign policy, which is less than appealing.

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The problem is that it is Israel that is the aggressor, not the Palestinians.  Israel first of all is both an expansionist state as well as an ethno-state (a land for and only for ethnic Jews).  This is nothing like objectivism.

Well to make this issue clear, I'll point one difference to make you sure which is the aggressor:

They attack to make us give them what they want. We attack to make them stop attacking us.

Israel has never(NEVER) attacked the arabs in Israel and Gaza in order to achieve its political goals.

Many of the ways that the Israely government takes are wrong. One example is that it nationalize lands in order to build the separation fence. I saw in the news a few days ago this old Arab family standing in their olive plantation. They were watching the bulldozers and tractors ruining their trees and the the old man and his adult sun were crying. It was horrible, they got nothing in return. Now what I think to myself is- why shouldn't this man hate Israel? what does he have to lose now, After the Israely government took his life work and destroyed it?

The thing is, that it doesn't metter to the fact that our reasons for the attacks are different in essence. One is justified and the other is wrong. If you assembled now an Objectivist government to Israel, it would still have to use violence, in retaliation.

If you still don't see the crucial difference, I can tell you a story to help. I live in a small village. amost two years ago, one night, I was standing by the kitchen window and I heard a few shots. Nobody believed me at first, but in ten minutes they had to- a group of terrorists infiltrated our village, in attempt to kill every person they encountered. They were shooting at passing cars and houses and throwing grenades into the yards. two soldiers(one of them I know- a volunteer in the police) were hurt lightly, but in other villages- a house was enterd and a mother and two small children were murdered(with their father listening over the phone); a fourteen years old girl was shot through the window while holding a baby and her father was murdered while confronting the terrorist; a five years old girl murdered in her bed; a few monthes old baby girl shot and killed by a sniper in her crib.

These were all in different villages and not even one quarter from all the incidents. How can one mistake them for "freedom-fighters"??

When Israely soldiers infiltrate Arab sattlements, they do it in order to find a specific terrorist, know in his crimes. How can one compare?

:lol::ph34r::warn:

Now, one more thing(excuse me for my poor english), I'm not sure what this means- "Farming communes in Israel are, like farming communes in America, not by mandate." If this means that they are not recognized by the government- they are. They have the legal status like any other cities or villages. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation.

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The question is: why support Israel?

"Israel and Taiwan are the two countries that need and deserve U.S. help-not

in the name of international altruism, but by reason of actual U.S. national

interests in the Mediterranean and the Pacific." Ayn Rand-The lessons of

Vietnam in The Voice of Reason

They are our civilized allies under attack from uncivilized enemies.

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Israel is in "Temporary emergency" since 1948- did you know that? It allows the government to do outrageous things
In fact, your country is in a state of war.

What do you expect from a country with no constitution? Did you know that in Israel, Individual rights are acknowledged in the form of "basic-rules" (that are supposed to be stronger than regular rules) that can be changed or ignored if the majority of politicians at a certain point in time vote on it?

The American Constitution is akin to a "basic law."

in Israel, there only The Israely Post Office- and it sucks! It's illegal to start a delivery service in Israel.

Might have a lot to do with Israel's being in a "state of war." Security level needs to be high.

That I'd have a choice as to whether to live in a kibbutz or not is reason enough to believe that Israel is not a socialist democracy per se. Sure, the kibbutz concept is collectivist.

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My proposal to Israel is this: forcibly evacuate a Palestinian city to another Arab/Muslim country; if utter peace does not magically ensue, forcibly evacuate all of the Palestinian territories.

Of course it's violent. But it's not initiation of force, and all harm that comes to innocent people is entirely the fault of Palestinian terrorist groups and their majority sympathizers.

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The American Constitution is akin to a "basic law."
Can you change the constitution on vote? really?? :angry:

Might have a lot to do with Israel's being in a "state of war." Security level needs to be high.

No, this has nothing to do with security. Come to think of it, I don't know why the heck they don't allow a private posting service, but they don't.

That I'd have a choice as to whether to live in a kibbutz or not is reason enough to believe that Israel is not a socialist democracy per se. Sure, the kibbutz concept is collectivist.
How about Israel declaring itself as such, is it a a good enough reason?

Israel is a socialist democracy. Besides, calling it something else won't change reality. The amounts of money dedicated to welfare has impoverished the country to the state that it would not be able to manage without the financial support it recieves from the US! This country has no money!

---

I think it's silly for me to argue weather Israel is good or bad. The facts are that life here are practically unbearable, they are suffocating us. The people that are running our country are plain stupid. Maybe it's the same in the US, I don't know, is that your'e point(AutoJC)?

My point is that one shouldn't rush into supporting Israel because he saw a picture of a railroad or a fency skyscraper(btw, we have only about 6 of them, but that's off topic). One should understand that he must support Israel because the alternative is a primitive tribal society.

Another good reason I didn't think of myself is

"Israel and Taiwan are the two countries that need and deserve U.S. help-not

in the name of international altruism, but by reason of actual U.S. national

interests in the Mediterranean and the Pacific." Ayn Rand-The lessons of

Vietnam in The Voice of Reason

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Can you change the constitution on vote? really?? <_<

In fact, in America, you can.

Amendments require ratification by 37 of the 50 states, plus passing both houses of the legislature.

The Constitution has been amended numerous times. ;)

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