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Value of Physical Beauty

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Yes, they are shaped differently but side by side it would be tough to tell them apart based on size - atleast the ones i've seen. Individual differences tend to play a much bigger part here. However, women tend to have smaller waists and store more fat on the side of their thighs, which often creates a nice curve around the hip.

This is because men are often larger than women overall. But the proportional differences are there in many cases. I've seen a LOT of pelvic bones--I used to clean them every day at work.

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This is because men are often larger than women overall. But the proportional differences are there in many cases. I've seen a LOT of pelvic bones--I used to clean them every day at work.

Allright, i'll take your word for it. I have only studied the subject in relation to artistic anatomy.

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Can a person's physical beauty be a value in love?

One is aware of physical beauty at the perceptual level. When one first spies a "beautiful" (by whatever standard of beauty the seer judges) woman (or man), isn't there an immediate biological response? The pupils widen, the nostrils flare, the heart quickens (skips a beat), pheremones start pumping out of the sweat glands, and endorphines are squeezed into the brain that make one feel good about "getting a good eye-full"... but all this happens even if one has no defined concept of "beauty" or of "value" or of "love".

To my observation, that is where love ends with a lot of people. But to one who knows how and what to value, he will understand that he will be in love with his wife even into the shriveled, physically-degenerated, and generally unhealthy final years of life. He will love his wife because of the virtues of her character, long after the sensory stimulation of her beauty has faded.

A man may choose to engage in a conversation after noticing a beautiful woman, then, over time, judge for himself how well the "inside" matches the "outside". Or a man may encounter a woman on a daily basis, over time befriend her, then realize the inside is actually greater than the outside. But in each case, the inside is always considered and, for those with integrated values, always carries more weight. Can a rational man love a beautiful woman with a vile spirit?

Can a man love a woman because he values her physical beauty?

It is certainly possible for him to feel he were in love, but he would be the type of man to fall out of love with her after she's disfigured horribly in an accident.

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It is also inaccurate to describe ANY preferences in terms of hard-wiring, which anyone who thinks for two seconds together would realize. Preferences are psychological in origin, not physiological. When it comes to physical attractiveness, most people prefer traits that they've seen elsewhere in people that they like or who they generally esteem in some way for some reason. For a lot of people, this is a passive absorption of whatever other people seem to value (hence the blind desire for the 'popular girl' or guy that so many seem to experience in their teenage years).

I don't agree at all. Most heterosexual men are not attracted to other men, for example, no matter how much they admire the other person. There is something physiologically hardwired to certain female characteristics (and some would say this is the waist to hip ratio) that makes us specifically attracted to them, if we're heterosexual.

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There is something physiologically hardwired to certain female characteristics (and some would say this is the waist to hip ratio) that makes us specifically attracted to them, if we're heterosexual.
Couldn't this be explained by "hardwired" attraction to women as such, with the attraction of certain characteristics that are specifically feminine coming from the implicit identification of these characteristics as being characteristically female?

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You see a beautiful woman, and being confident, you walk up and start talking to her. You find out that she is a moron. I mean she has limited mental capability. You will see as being less beautiful.

This exact occurence has happened to me. When I started talking to the individual, they were amazing in terms of aesthetics. A few minutes into the conversation, even his physical appearance lost its charm.

Beauty can be an incentive to approach a person, but - as has been said above me periodically - there is more to it than an exterior. I focus more on how a person treats and holds their body as opposed to other corporeal attributes. To explain, someone who is "in shape" would be more attractive to me than someone who is not. Eye color is not nearly as important as maintaining eye contact, which I perceive as a sign of confidence. Being tall doesn't impress me like good posture and composure do.

However, there are biological attractions that I've been forming theories on. For example, why certain people prefer blue eyes or blond hair; curves, etc.

There are usually decent explanations below the surface. It's interesting how different our preferences can be.

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Men, what is more disgusting to you, a well groomed woman who burps, farts, has a filthy house, and eats unhealthy food or a poorly groomed woman (bushy eyebrows, yellow teeth, acne etc.) who doesn't do those things?

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Both.

I believe Anthony Ludovici – an admirer of Friedrich Nietzsche and rather unattractive character (psychically speaking) in some respects – once wrote “Women have no taste.” Women in general. All of them.

Not that I’m insinuating that one pretty piece of goods has exhibited this trait here or anything like that!

Edited by Mark2

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I think this answer by Peikoff is strongly related:

 

http://www.peikoff.com/tag/sex/page/59/#list

 

Not being an explicit Objectivist, but an occasional listener/reader, I am not sure how to interpret that answer. Personally, I would say it depends on the individual what value physical beauty utlimately has.

 

First of all, I don't know whether "can" in that podcast question really means "can" or whether it is supposed to mean "should". But from what I have read, Objectivists seem to hold the view that you really have no choice about the fact that you are expressing your appreciation of fundamental and concrete values that you see in another person's mind when having sex. So I assume "can" really means "can" in that question. So the podcast question would translate to "can beauty be a fundamental value to a person"?

 

I find it confusing though, how the word "mind" is often used in terms like "mindless" etc., not just by Objectivists. I don't think I have ever met a mindless person. The very fact that a human being is conscious of his own existence and conscious of the fact that among the things he has are concrete feelings of his own body already raises him above any animal. That's already a mind, with concrete sensual data at its base. It is another question, of course, how far his mind has developed to more abstract integrations. And it is ultimately also another question, what content or aspect of another person's mind in its concrete form is identical to one's own fundamental (and concrete) values.

 

Secondly, I don't know whether Peikoff's answer is meant as a conclusive answer. After all, his answer begins with "I would say...", also stating that sex should be about fundamental values. So according to him, it seems to me, beauty cannot BE a fundamental value to a person. Why this should be so, I don't see, since beauty is something directly consumable and directly enjoyable in a degree according the individual's capacity. It is not like money, where you can actually only value the concrete things you can or want to BUY with it. So I have to assume his answer is not meant as a conclusive answer.

 

But I agree, of course, that extremely bad attributes in other fields (like a person being a robber or a murderer etc.) can destroy the possibility to enjoy that value, as it can any fundamental value. However, I don't think such extreme negative attributes are assumed when talking about a person one does not know.

Edited by DiscoveryJoy

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I'm reminded of an old truck driver I had a coffee with back in the early 90's while taking some downtime to catch up my hours.  He was a guy who had been doing it well before deregulation and we sat next to each other having a meal and talking.  He saw me watching the waitresses (it was a sports bar of sorts) and he said, "Kid, never mind.  Those are Ex-Wives waiting to happen".

 

Of course, I asked "What do you mean?"

 

He said, "You're looking at them in only one way.  That always ends the same.  You marry them because she was hot and you met in a bar and a year later your divorced because the only thing you had in common was that she was hot and you met her in a bar."

 

I can't help but laugh when I see people checking each other out in bars or restaurants to this day - I think of that guy. 

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