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Praxus

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I just started reading Cicero: The Life and Times of Rome's Greatest Politician by Anthony Everitt. I found it extremly interesting, exspecially the part about the Catalina Conspericy and the backround information of how the soon to be major figures like Pompey and Caeser were talked about a long with Cicero.

Anyone else read it?

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I haven't read the book, but I know a bit about the man, and the period. I also recommend "Cato" by Joseph Addison, an 18th century George Washington's favorite play about another man, the two of whom, along with Cicero, were the only two men fighting to save a Roman Republic that everyone else has given up on.

Sometimes people forget that Rome wasn't always an Empire, or that Caesar wasn't the man who 'built' Rome, as if there was nothing there before he came.

Have you read about Caesar's thugs led by Clodius (Pulcher I think)? Although Pompey and Caesar were ostensibly allied in their attempts to sieze te throne, Pompey had a spurt of conscience at the 11th hour, so he decided to hire his own thugs, led by Meno, (and encouraged by Cato/Cicero), to fight off Caesar's henchmen who were raising anarchy in the Eternal City.

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I haven't read the book, but I know a bit about the man, and the period. I also recommend "Cato" by Joseph Addison, an 18th century George Washington's favorite play about another man, the two of whom, along with Cicero, were the only two men fighting to save a Roman Republic that everyone else has given up on.

Interestingly I just read last night that Marcus Porcius Cato was working for the prosocution of Murena while Cicero was Murena's defender.

After Cicero's speach Cato remarked "What a comical consul we have".

I plan on reading Cato and then begin to read Cicero's works.

Have you read about Caesar's thugs led by Clodius (Pulcher I think)? Although Pompey and Caesar were ostensibly allied in their attempts to sieze te throne, Pompey had a spurt of conscience at the 11th hour, so he decided to hire his own thugs, led by Meno, (and encouraged by Cato/Cicero), to fight off Caesar's henchmen who were raising anarchy in the Eternal City.

At the point I'm at Pompey is away at war in the east.

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From what I remember, Cicero was instrumental in discovering Catiline's conspiracy and publicly exposing his machinations. Even just 100 years ago, the majority of the public was still very well versed in Ancient Greco-Roman history, and paintings about those ancient times abounded (since these were intended for popular consumption, and assumed a certain level of knowledge, they give an indication of the popular interest and understanding of those times). Even a great gallery such as Cordair has not even one painting with a Classic theme in mind. Anyway, back to Catiline, here's one famous 19th century painting of Cicero's denounciation:

http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/classics...om/denounce.jpg

Catiline, ostensibly a respectable Roman senator yet working under covers to maliciously undermine the government, is helplessly isolated in the Senate by Cicero, who systematically and methodically destroys, demolishes, Catiline's public character, respectability, and any future for his designs.

About Cicero, Cato, and Murena, here's a quote from Plutarch that mirrors what you said:

When Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato`s prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic sect; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next to him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."
Cicero, of course, along with Seneca, became the most famous of all Stoics, so there's more here than meets the eye. It would be helpful to remember that at this time he was primarily a lawyer, and not averse to making sweeping claims to sway his courtroom. The historical context here is also important - the speech was delivered in 63BC, whereas Caesar/Crassus/Pompey Triumvirate became fully inagurated in 59BC when Caesar won the consulship. So, before the dire threat that these three men posed to the Republic became apparent, there may have been petty dissentions among Rome's leading men. But after Caesar increasingly made it apparent what his designs were while campaigning in Gaul and smashing enormous armies of the unwashed and hairy French ( :D ), then Cicero and Cato became more allied in their values and aims. Indeed as time went on, the two men acquired tremendous respect for each other. At one point Cato completely alienated the Roman people and Senate by his intransigent opposition to tyranny and corruption of the Late Republic. Cicero, a very well known and respected politician, was his greatest defender both with the People and in the Senate; in a number of places he records his near-worship for Cato's virtues and Stoic attributes, and ridicules men who dare show anything but the utmost respect for the man.

The best places to learn about these two Roman heroes are "Cato" and "Cicero" by Plutarch, a 1st century AD biographer/historian. These works have never been equalled in my opinion, because unlike even the best modern books, they never succumb to impotent synicism and skepticism, and allow hero-worship to take a central role when appropriate.

The play "Cato" is short, however, and *very* moving, so that may actually be a good first step, in order for you to acquire inspiration and emotional fuel to devote time to reading longer works on the subject. Cicero is absent in the play, for the story focuses on the last gasps of the Republic when Caesar has crossed the Rubicon, and the Senate had to evacuate Rome for Utica in Africa (Cicero stayed in Rome, not willing at the time to ally himself with the Republicans in face of Caesar's fury). There, in Utica, Cato and a few others prepare to make a final stand for freedom.

In general, Cato's legacy has been a Stoic intransigence against tyrants and the mob - in action more than in words. Cicero's legacy has been a whole corpus of political and philosophical writings that served in America's founding; I also remember that he might have been the first Latin translator of Aristotle (!); and finally, his works are an unmistakable collection of speeches and letters all with one overwhelming aim of arguing for rational human happiness and a society of natural rights. Cato was a stronger man, in my opinion, but more quiet and reserved in his intellectual range and thought - a conservative in the best sense of the word. Cicero did a few things that betrayed his Stoic heritage, but he was a philosopher of the first rate, a true man of action who was Rome's greatest ethical/political thinker and at the same time someone who actively influenced public policy. Cicero's thought can be described by worship of the classic Roman virtue, mixed with intellectual innovation and an inherent a desire for human progress - a liberal in the best sense of the word. The Founding Fathers may have admired Cato a little more, but it was Cicero's works that they invoked during the Constitutional Conventions, and his impassioned speeches inspired them as much as Cato's actions.

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From what I remember, Cicero was instrumental in discovering Catiline's conspiracy and publicly exposing his machinations. Even just 100 years ago, the majority of the public was still very well versed in Ancient Greco-Roman history, and paintings about those ancient times abounded (since these were intended for popular consumption, and assumed a certain level of knowledge, they give an indication of the popular interest and understanding of those times). Even a great gallery such as Cordair has not even one painting with a Classic theme in mind. Anyway, back to Catiline, here's one famous 19th century painting of Cicero's denounciation:
It is quite amazing really. I mention Cicero in school and they have absolutely no idea what I am talking about. The only Roman they seem to know is Caeser and the vast majority don't even know his praenomen.

The best places to learn about these two Roman heroes are "Cato" and "Cicero" by Plutarch, a 1st century AD biographer/historian. These works have never been equalled in my opinion, because unlike even the best modern books, they never succumb to impotent synicism and skepticism, and allow hero-worship to take a central role when appropriate.

Most of the information in this book comes from Cicero's corespondance with Atticus. The rest comes from Plutarch. He seems to be main guy as far Roman history goes.

Cato was a stronger man, in my opinion, but more quiet and reserved in his intellectual range and thought - a conservative in the best sense of the word.
Yes, it was quite amazing with a man with no rhetorical teaching. Yet Cato was able to carry on amazing speeches for hours. It seems modern politicians are intelectually impotent compared to Cicero, Cato, and even Caeser.

The Founding Fathers may have admired Cato a little more, but it was Cicero's works that they invoked during the Constitutional Conventions, and his impassioned speeches inspired them as much as Cato's actions.

This is true for most of the founding fathers (exspecially George Washington), however Cicero was John Adam's favorite philosopher and statesmen. In fact he called him the greatest statesmen and philosopher in the history of the world.

I also remember that he might have been the first Latin translator of Aristotle (!)

Speaking of Aristotle, I just began reading Aristotles first book on Rhetoric (It is relitivly short so I'd figure I'd read it along with Cicero). Would you recomend any books that go into further explinations of Aristotle beyond his own writings?

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Aristotle's Rhetoric is a very dense book, a heavy but very systematic, and the first, book on Classic theory of Rhetoric. I've never finished it myself, primarily because it goes too far into theory and not enough into practice (such as delivery). For the purposes of an active practical textbook on Rhetoric, Quintillian is said to be the best, even better than Cicero's "Orator".

In regards to reading books about Aristotle and his theories, to be honest I haven't read any. Reading Aristotle's original is hard though, so my understanding of him only grew after I took a graduate class on his Ethics and Politics during my senior undergrad year. Pretty amazing how lucky I got, that during a general depletion of Classical scholars my school actually had one, and that he offered a class solely devoted to the philosopher (without any Plato or others in the mix). So I got lucky in that my true inroads in understanding Aristotle began because I studied with a scholar of true Classical tradition who spoke/read Greek and Latin, and was specifically an Aristotelian expert himself. As you can imagine, I scoured him for greater understanding and help with integration.

For you, if you can find some classes on the Ancients in college, I highly recommend you attend some, even if you're not in school anymore. Another thing you can do, even if it sounds ridiculous, is learn Ancient Greek. People say Aristotle's originals are nothing like his convoluted English translations, and that he is actually very easy and lucid in original. Other than that, load up your basement, attic, and storerooms, with huge bags of Patience, and brave Aristotle's translations. I don't recommend reading Commentaries right away, because they all impose their own understanding, and may limit your understanding of the full range of Aristotle's views. Many modern commentators, for example, claim that his "Politics" is an unmistakable argument for a totalitarian collectivist government. On surface this is not an implausible claim, but however, is still incorrect given a proper context in which Aristotle spoke. So, if you are loaded up on many containers of Patience, and have a lot of it to last you through the difficult times, you may want to read him once and understand what he said however much you can, and then read commentaries to see how other people understood it. Of commentaries, you're probably best off with Avicenna a famous 10th century Arabic Aristotelian, and Thomas Aquinas of 13th century. But I haven't read these commentaries yet, so cannot definitively comment on them one way or the other.

Edit: minor grammatical changes

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In regards to reading books about Aristotle and his theories, to be honest I haven't read any.

A short, but excellent secondary source is John Herman Randall Jr., Aristotle, Columbia University Press, 1960. Randall is a wonderful scholar (his journal papers are fascinating) who has a good appreciation of the signifcance of Aristotle. This little book covers a lot of ground. However, it is not without failures. Ayn Rand reviewed the book in The Objectivist Newsletter, Vol. 2, No. 5, May 1963, and she highlights both the good and the bad.

A really wonderful book which focuses on Aristotle's biology, but does so by reference to his epistemology and other philosophical premises, is one edited by Aristotle scholar and Objectivist Allan Gottlhelf. Philosophical issues in Aristotle's biology, edited by Allan Gotthelf and James G. Lennox, Cambridge University Press, 1987. Though I consider Allan Gotthelf's essays to be the highlight of the book, it also contains a great deal of first-rate material by other authors.

And, of course, the scholarly works of Terence Irwin are greatly valued in the field, though his notes are best read with a highly critical perspective in mind.

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I wish I knew the artist of the painting, and that there were bigger scaled images of it on the web. One recent reproduction was done on the cover of a Penguin edition of some of Cicero's works. Penguin, in general, has an excellent track record of publishing Classics with a popular appeal in mind, they often reproduce 19th century paintings about the subject of their books, since in those days paintings about Classical era abounded. I will check the university bookstore, and Barnes and Noble, and you should too. Together we'll find the author's name :confused:

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