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Mosque on the Twin Towers ruins

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I'll have to be excused for not responding directly to the other posters in this topic on some issues I'll be hitting on here, thanks in advance.

This thread is redundant and should be closed.

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This thread is redundant and should be closed.

Now there's no need for that, I was merely remarking that unfortunately I would not be directly quoting the text at hand, still present was a critique of fundamentally most argumentation conducted throughout this thread. I believe this thread is important, as the more ethics are argued over and refined, the sharper our rationale will be when called to the task of intellectual battle. Whether or not the Objectivist community develops a united opinion on Modern Terrorism or not is inconsequential, for no matter what the duration and ferocity of the argument, all with an open mind (as I am sure all of us possess) will surely benefit. What I meant by my apology was to clear the air of any ire fermented towards me due to my lack of direct quotes, which I most often utilize in my arguments. I repeat, the fundamental critique still hit's most of the propositions worth quarreling over, and this topic is still extremely pertinent and important.

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Now there's no need for that, I was merely remarking that unfortunately I would not be directly quoting the text at hand, still present was a critique of fundamentally most argumentation conducted throughout this thread. I believe this thread is important, as the more ethics are argued over and refined, the sharper our rationale will be when called to the task of intellectual battle. Whether or not the Objectivist community develops a united opinion on Modern Terrorism or not is inconsequential, for no matter what the duration and ferocity of the argument, all with an open mind (as I am sure all of us possess) will surely benefit. What I meant by my apology was to clear the air of any ire fermented towards me due to my lack of direct quotes, which I most often utilize in my arguments. I repeat, the fundamental critique still hit's most of the propositions worth quarreling over, and this topic is still extremely pertinent and important.

This thread is redundant to the main thread where this issue was discussed. NYC Mosque: Respect Property Rights

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  • 3 weeks later...

Islam teaches outright lying in order to advance islamic dogma.

Like David said, that's not true. Lying is only acceptable in Islam to achieve three goals, and no, not one of them is to advance Islamic dogma. Here are the three things:

Muhammad said: "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" [Ahmad, 6.459. H]

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Like David said, that's not true. Lying is only acceptable in Islam to achieve three goals, and no, not one of them is to advance Islamic dogma. Here are the three things:

Muhammad said: "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" [Ahmad, 6.459. H]

There is trouble between the kufr and the faithful peoples in New York City over this mosque issue. Therefore it is permissible to lie to them.

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Getting back to the original topic, has anyone actually said that they were going to try to have the mosque removed through protesting, etc.? I agree with the OP, I think it's in terrible taste, but do I think that they shouldn't be allowed to put it there? No. Has anyone said they should be forced to move it?

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Has anyone said they should be forced to move it?
Yes, many posters in this thread have said the government should disallow it at its planned site. Dr. Peikoff too (someone must have linked to his podcast above). As for the mainstream, many protesters want the government to stop it too.
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I think this issue tests the philosophical foundations of America. The mosque is an insult, a victory cry of brute impotence hurled into the bloody face of its victim, a very public claim to superiority by terrorists, and a wicked, painful provocation.

But, in America, religion isn't sticks and stones. In America, we let fools spout foolishness. We know better than to sacrifice reason to nonsense, which is what censorship does. We know not to give up all we own and produce in order to deprive some nitwit of his nefarious statuary and memorials.

So, the more egregious the insult this mosque represents, the more powerfully America shows its superiority by respecting it as property. As I see it, by allowing it, we defeat everything it stands for.

Mindy

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Another excellent article exposing taqiyyah

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Taqiyya-Deception-Islam.htm

If this type of "thinking" is allowed within islam then there is virtually no limits to the subversionary tactics used to impose islamic doctrine and law.

Do you honestly think "Islam Watch" is a good source for unbiased information?

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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I think this issue tests the philosophical foundations of America. The mosque is an insult, a victory cry of brute impotence hurled into the bloody face of its victim, a very public claim to superiority by terrorists, and a wicked, painful provocation.
Do you mean that it is the intent of the people behind the mosque to be insulting (or worse), as many have claimed? Or, do you mean that it comes across as insulting regardless of their motives?
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As I see it, by allowing it, we defeat everything it stands for.

Mindy

Hilariously false. This is an excellent reduction to the absurd, good job on that. If there is not a Monty Python sketch ridiculing this notion, there ought to be.

One might as well argue "The 9/11 attack showed the world how violent and medieval Islam really is, defeating everything it stands for." But Islam stands for violence and medievalism, openly. They don't care how virtuous you think you are so long as you are converted, silent, or dead. Neither will the rest of the world.

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CapitalistSwine, Until I see facts to the contrary from their statements made regarding islam - then yes, I do find them credible.
Presumably, you've read the Koran and found the details to be consistent? If not, it is a pretty short book, made easier because most of the stories in it are straight out of the bible and many of the injunctions are repeated two or three times (presumably when the various sources were poorly compiled into a single text).
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Do you mean that it is the intent of the people behind the mosque to be insulting (or worse), as many have claimed? Or, do you mean that it comes across as insulting regardless of their motives?

I think they mean it that way, and it does, of course, come across that way.

Mindy

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Hilariously false. This is an excellent reduction to the absurd, good job on that. If there is not a Monty Python sketch ridiculing this notion, there ought to be.

One might as well argue "The 9/11 attack showed the world how violent and medieval Islam really is, defeating everything it stands for." But Islam stands for violence and medievalism, openly. They don't care how virtuous you think you are so long as you are converted, silent, or dead. Neither will the rest of the world.

Is there a question there, counselor?

Mindy

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CapitalistSwine, Until I see facts to the contrary from their statements made regarding islam - then yes, I do find them credible.

Adopting arbitrary statements which cannot be or haven't yet been contradicted, as truth, is fallacious. This is the same fallacious thought process that you have been relying on in many threads.

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CapitalistSwine, Until I see facts to the contrary from their statements made regarding islam - then yes, I do find them credible.

Though http://www.jihadwatch.org/ does the very best work online exposing the danger and evil of islam.

I hope you don't consider yourself an Objectivist then, because such a position is very un-objectivist, and alludes to the fact you allow for confirmation bias to take over your mental processes regarding this subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

"Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true."

This is further reinforced through Jake Ellison's statement:

Adopting arbitrary statements which cannot be or haven't yet been contradicted, as truth, is fallacious. This is the same fallacious thought process that you have been relying on in many threads.

There is plenty of information on the web that contradicts what you believe to be true here. The fact that it is not presented on the websites you choose to visit, so far only being jihadwatch from what I can ascertain, since that is the only site you have posited, and due to your high level of approval of the website.

Have you ever thought that these people, given the name of their website, which in and of itself alludes to the potentiality of bias in content, may spin some of the information they get because they, just maybe, are a bunch of people that are very good at doing their research or have good foreknowledge in certain respects and twist little specifics in their information to curve the actuality of the event towards their own views?? I would never suggest I am a know it all about Islam. In fact I would say its the most complicated/complex (and necessarily varied in interpretation by its adherents) religion I have ever read about that isn't "cult size". However, I know a good deal about it, I have read the Quran and Hadiths multiple times, I know quite a few Muslims myself, I have visited the Middle East, I have read and continue to read a great deal of books from the CIA, foreign policy experts, counter-terrorism experts, and those very knowledgeable about the culture and mechanics of these regions and the people that believe in this religion and/or have had a wide array of unique or personal experiences with them. I have this JihadWatch website in my Google Reader, just as I do that horrid woman's blog, I forget her name right now, that AtlasShrugged site that focuses on nothing but Islamism, and equates all Muslims as being party to the 9/11 attacks or some such nonsense.

Both sites are very good at throwing huge amounts of information (and well cited information at that) at people. The problem is most of the readers of these websites are reading these sites instead of books by people that have the background to be expounding this kind of information and can be trusted to be accurate. I have noticed time and again that both of these websites tend to twist little things in general, and there have been a number of events (I am excluding the Mosque thing entirely from this) where I have read very different things on other websites or from other sources where I can be sure that the credibility is much more likely to be solid. If you think people are going to hand-deliver to you information you do not want to read yourself, that may challenge the views you want to hold, be it intentionally or otherwise, then you are sorely mistaken and I suggest you find ways to better determine what sources you get your information from in the future, because eventually you are going to have some kind of conversation with a Muslim and end up being very embarrassed.

Let me make my position more clear here. I am not saying you should stop reading that website, what I am saying is you need to have a nice spectrum of sources so that you can contrast and get the big picture properly, which helps with objectivity. As a rule I always have at least 5 if not 10 blogs on any given "big subject" such as foreign policy, religion, philosophy etc. and often I have ones from conflicting views, like with how I mentioned I have those 2 websites in my blog roll for Islam, which, in regards to that category, I have 25 feeds total in my google reader.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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I never suggested Islam does not create carnage. I also never volunteered to be the personal "corrector" of JihadWatch inaccuracies, which would undoubtedly be a full time job with how often they post content. I suggested ways to alleviate that issue yourself. We were speaking specifically of taqiyyah with respect to JihadWatch in this thread, of which multiple users here pointed out that such information was incorrect. You have the internet, use it. I don't have the extra free time to assist people with something they all can do as well as I can: google searches. If you want clarification on something specific after you have done that, then that is another thing entirely and I would be more than happy to discuss that specific detail with you. I don't have the time or the inclination to teach someone about a religion they are not willing to properly inform themselves on their own about, especially not one as confusing, varied, complicated and complex as this one. Take a class on it if you are in college if you are genuinely interested in being informed on that things you are criticizing, that is what I did.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Take a class on it if you are in college if you are genuinely interested in being informed on that things you are criticizing, that is what I did.

You think that taking a college course is the best, or even a good way of becoming informed on a subject? OK, fair warning.

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