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6 Year Old Girl Groped By TSA

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Comparing a TSA pat down to a sexual assault really trivializes a real sexual assault.

Yes and no. I spent a fair amount of time doing volunteer work with victims of sex crimes/abuse/assault as has my wife (me as a volunteer her as a psych professional).

Many women who have suffered some form of sexual trauma report feeling terrorized by these procedures.

The fact is you have no control, no right to say no and now, no right to leave rather than going through with the search.

For myself, my personal and professional business is being hampered by the fact that I will not fly because I know myself well enough to know that anyone forcing me to submit to this would likely end up hurt. Badly. And me in jail.

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Many women who have suffered some form of sexual trauma report feeling terrorized by these procedures.

I think this illustrates my point. They were "damaged" by the real sexual assault not the TSA pat down. Most people do not suffer years of sexual emotional trauma from a TSA pat down whereas people who are subjected to a real sexual assault often suffer years of emotional trauma.

Please understand the distinction that I'm not defending TSA or government involvement in airline security. Rather I"m making a distinction between a vicious, violent attack involving malice and an intent to hurt and defile from an administrative pat down for security reasons from a person who in all likelihood is not intending to hurt or defile, has no malice, and is not doing it for some twisted sexual gratification. I think the comparison undermines the seriousness of a real attack.

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I think this illustrates my point. They were "damaged" by the real sexual assault not the TSA pat down. Most people do not suffer years of sexual emotional trauma from a TSA pat down whereas people who are subjected to a real sexual assault often suffer years of emotional trauma.

Please understand the distinction that I'm not defending TSA or government involvement in airline security. Rather I"m making a distinction between a vicious, violent attack involving malice and an intent to hurt and defile from an administrative pat down for security reasons from a person who in all likelihood is not intending to hurt or defile, has no malice, and is not doing it for some twisted sexual gratification. I think the comparison undermines the seriousness of a real attack.

I get what you're saying but I still only partly agree with you.

It's like you may not have caused the wound... but it doesn't mean you are not causing harm by ripping the scab off.

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What is interesting to me is the fact that a video of a 6-year-old going through a scanner that emits ionizing radiation isn't news, but one of her getting a pat-down is.

If she (or her parents) were given a choice, then they chose the pat down.

If she was not given a choice, then it was because young children aren't allowed to go through the apparatus.

(I don't know the TSA rules, I'm just looking at it from a health perspective.)

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Comparing a TSA pat down to a sexual assault really trivializes a real sexual assault.

Calling this something other than a "real sexual assault" kinda trivializes what they are actually doing. Does the fact that it may be less violent than others somehow diminish its import? <_<

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Calling this something other than a "real sexual assault" kinda trivializes what they are actually doing.

No, it doesn't. What is important is to recognize what they are actually doing, not exaggerating it something that it is not to appeal to emotion.

Does the fact that it may be less violent than others somehow diminish its import?

Straw man. I didn't say that it was not important. I said the comparison trivializes actual sexual assaults. I'm calling BS if you say that you would be just as fine being held done, punched, kicked and forcibly anally sodomized as you would be having the back of someone hand brush your outer clothing while checking for weapons.

Edited by RationalBiker

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Plenty of women have had their boobs groped by TSA Nazis. I'd call that sexual assault. Certainly not something one of us are allowed to do in the course of our day. I work in the Security field and can't grope boobs.

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Whether one is killed in their sleep with poison or blown apart with explosives, the upshot is that you are dead. Dismissing one wrong by pointing at an even more heinous wrong does not make the former "OK". It may be a form of mental triage, but both wrongs remain wrong.

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Dismissing one wrong by pointing at an even more heinous wrong does not make the former "OK".

Ridiculous.

Rational Biker is NOT making the claim that this is OK, he is merely making the claim that forcible rape is worse, and that claiming that neither is worse than the other trivializes forcible rape.

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Whether one is killed in their sleep with poison or blown apart with explosives, the upshot is that you are dead. Dismissing one wrong by pointing at an even more heinous wrong does not make the former "OK". It may be a form of mental triage, but both wrongs remain wrong.

Lets try not to confuse things here.

While I partially disagree with some of the conclusions RationalBiker has reached it is dishonest to twist his words into claiming he is saying that this is ok.

Everything he has put forth that I have read so far is that it is wrong (what TSA is doing)- but not as wrong as some of us say it is.

Those of us who disagree with his estimation of the seriousness of this violation are better served by using reason to dispute the conclusion he has reached than attacking him with false and twisted variations on his statements.

Edited to make a certain point clearer.

Edited by SapereAude

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IF the government allows someone or something to slip through security and another plane blows up or crashes into a building, the public cries out that the government is not doing enough to protect it's citizens and they want heads to roll.

And that is why new security proposals must be proven to be genuinely effective, rather than creating a false sense of security while being incredibly intrusive.

No airport in the world faces terrorist threats more serious than does Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv and yet it is the most secure airport in the world. Ben Gurion has experienced no serious terrorist incidents for more than 30 years. At the same time we don't hear stories like the one above at that airport.

What infuriates people about TSA and what makes it different from Ben Gurion Aiport's approach, is the repeatedly displayed lack of common sense. A person does not need to have a degree in security screening to see that this family clearly did not pose any security risks.

Ben Gurion Aiport has a very comprehensive security planning but this thread is about the pat downs so I will focus on that.

Are there occasional pat downs at the Ben Gurion Aiport? Yes - there is a chance of that. However, those are implemented in conjunction with behavior pattern recognition. This policy not only satisfies civil liberties questions (I think it would for any reasonable person) but for over 30 years has been meeting their security goals. Racial profiling is not as effective because an enemy of a different ethnic background (but similar beliefs..) could be missed and potentially able to successfully carry out an attack.

I can guarantee you that if TSA airport security staff was well trained in behavior pattern recognition and "given reasonable suspicion...." was in TSA's vocabulary in relation to these pat downs - people like me would have a much easier time accepting this policy.

This is just one example of the kind of improvements which could be made.

Again, it is the lack of common sense, it is the blatant missing of the mark in terms of security like in the above example, which is infuriating. It is for this reason that TSA gets absolutely no sympathy from me even though, similarly to you, I do recognize the need for security.

Edited by ~Sophia~

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A person does not need to have a degree in security screening to see that this family clearly did not pose any security risks.

And where exactly in that video does it clearly show that?

Did it show what lead up to the pat down?

Did it show the behavoir of the parent(s), child before the pat down?

That asked, one might argue the video is shown out of context.

And also the rules and guidelines in airport security, like at that one, anyone know what they are? Do they need a reason, can they do random pat downs?

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From Edward Cline's "The Perils of a Siege Mentality" (28 December 2010):

"What bothers me just as much is also the willingness of Americans to tolerate and endure the airport terminal as a police state. There is no fundamental difference between conscientiously filling out a 1099 and an IRS audit, and removing one’s shoes, belts and jewelry and submitting to a body scan or a pat-down, except in its immediacy. Obey, or suffer the consequences. [Austin, Texas woman arrested at Austin-Bergstrom International Airport after refusing enhanced pat down - December 2010; link in Mr. Cline's article.] So, let us suggest here that, for example, the omnipotent IRS, as one controlling agency, has conditioned Americans to that kind of treatment, to sanction the hostage-taking of their values and to concede that they are but the wards of a guardian government. The Tea Party movement to the contrary notwithstanding, Americans are behaving more and more like sheep willing to be sheared. They need to be taught that such shearing leaves them naked before the government and all its eager, groping minions, and a laughing stock of our external enemies, who will continue killing us as they snort in triumph."

What's that story about the frog in a pot of water?

For the record, I agree with the essential points that RationalBiker has made in this thread.

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I am surprised by the use of the word "grope" in reference to that episode. I have been groped and witnessedothers being groped, and it certainly wasn't at all like what that security agent was doing. Like others, I do not in any way agree with forced physical contact without evidence and reason to warrant it, but that agent was gentle and considerate in her movements and touch of that child (within the context of the faulty premise that empowered her, that is). The child did not seem distressed to me at all. She seemed like she took the whole thing in stride, but with diligent observation as if it were all new to her but didn't hurt, so she allowed it and remained aware. She watched her mother go through first, so she already knew the outcome. There's nothing in the video to suggest that she was scared. And I would not conflate that type of touching with groping.

Why must people insist on using hyperbole in situations like this? It just renders previously useful words useless and the ante is upped for words whose definitions depend on relative degree for their meanings to be communicated. If that's now groping, then I grope my five children throughout each day, every day, and what I previously communicated as having been groped has now become violent molestation or some other inflated decription. Sigh.

That said, for now, I will not fly because of this. I will drive until I run out of land, but unless and until security measures are employed by competent people who have the skill and ability to recognise that I am not a terrorist threat without touching my body, I won't be traveling by air. Unless I must in order to gain something more valuable to me than my protest against this particular expression of the tyranny that I otherwise endure every other day by the gov't and its agents.

I am planning a trip (international relocation- I don't know if I can go by ship, or if the security measures are any different, actually) in five years- herein lies the more valuable personal gain mentioned above. I hope there is some improvement in this situation.

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If the word "grope" was inappropriately introduced to this thread, then that's my fault for merely copying the title of the YouTube video (which I thought was appropriate to do) which I became aware of via Google news. I did not see a particular problem at the time, but I certainly understand that it can serve to undermine the distinction between something much worse and what took place in that particular instance. I can only go by what I read in the article, but again according to it:

"The girl's father, Todd Drexel, says Anna was confused by the search and started crying afterward because she thought she'd done something wrong." Of course, that's not in the video, and of course there are much worse things done to children.

US parents say airport security agent frisked their 6-year-old daughter

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And where exactly in that video does it clearly show that?

Did it show what lead up to the pat down?

Did it show the behavoir of the parent(s), child before the pat down?

That asked, one might argue the video is shown out of context.

And also the rules and guidelines in airport security, like at that one, anyone know what they are? Do they need a reason, can they do random pat downs?

The girl was pulled out of line for a random "enhanced screening," for no good reason. It could happen to you.

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The girl was pulled out of line for a random "enhanced screening,"

Was it in fact a random screening?

for no good reason

And how are you able to determine that?

It could happen to you.

Unlikely. I flew only once in my entire life and that was from Pittsburgh to LA to see the play Monna Vanna performed and once I found out what flying in a plane was like, it would take a hell of a good reason to get me in one again, and not because of the screening. I went through detectors and screening then, but if they wanted to pat me down, it wouldn't have bothered me at all, hell I'd of submitted to anything to board, just to get my ass to see that play! :lol:

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In February '09, in an attempted assassination of Prince Muhammad bin Nayef bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud, a suicide bomber hid an IED (Improvised explosive device) in his anal cavity.

"Saudi suicide bomber hid IED in his anal cavity" Homeland Security Newswire, September 2009

"US adds AQAP bomb maker to terrorist list" by Bill Roggio, March 24, 2011

So what now?

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Was it in fact a random screening?

And how are you able to determine that?

It was reported that she was subject to a random enhanced screening. The TSA pulls people out of line all the time for these things. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

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If the agent who first looks at your boarding pass draws a giant heart on it, s/he is not flirting with you. You will get extra attention on the other side of the metal detector.

Of course they might have changed that code by now.

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