Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Do Objectivists Tip?

Rate this topic


McGroarty

Recommended Posts

1 - Waiters are often not paid AT ALL. Many restaurants cook the books so to speak, so that they do not have to pay their wait staff any wages whatsoever. I worked at an upscale corporate chain restaurant that actually paid $0.50 over the minumum wage, which totalled $2.83 / hr in Philly. After taxes and withholding, I took home about $40 a week from my hourly wages.
Without meaning to come across as rude, I would say thats just tough luck. If you dont feel that a job pays you well enough, then you should look for a better one. There's no great injustice here, its just market economics - as long as people are prepared to work for $2 an hour, employers will continue to offer $2 an hour. However, the fact that you have a low paying job does not mean that customers have any obligation to give you money. Personally I feel that paying employees is the duty of the employer rather than mine, hence I will normally only tip for service that goes above and beyond what is expected. If this results in staff not getting paid enough then they should find better jobs, just like everyone else.

To say that 'average' service does not deserve a tip is to say that the waiter does not deserve to be paid for the value he is providing.
No, its to say that he should be paid by the people who are employing him rather than by me.

Perhaps you have a problem with the tipping "culture" in the U.S. However, the fact is that it is probably not going to change anytime soon. Understand that the "base" price of eating out is the price on the menu plus 15% If you can't afford it, stay in.
Despite what I just said, I think this is fair enough. Its understandable that in certain contexts, tipping is expected - you can say its part of the implicit contract when you go into a restaurant. Therefore if I was to go into a restaurant where tipping was implied and all parties knew this beforehand, I would leave a tip and mentally include it as being part of the meal price ("adding 15% onto the menu listing", as it were). However, you should note that this completely defeats the purpose of tipping. The idea is meant to be that tipping encourages good service, since it's performance related. But if you think people should tip regardless of the performance, then there is no longer any benefit and it becomes yet another irrational social custom.

What youre advocating isnt really performance-linked pay, its a bizarre system where the customer agrees to pay 15% of the waiter's basic wage. From the waiter's point of view, theres no difference between my system where the restaurant pays a proper wage and I tip up to 15% depending on quality of service, and your system where the restaurant pays a low wage and I tip between 15% and 30% depending on quality of service. However I would argue that mine is less awkward, has less potential for abuse, and just makes more obvious sense.

On a sidenote, I dont think the 'they dont get paid much' argument applies to most of the jobs in the US which receive tips. As far as I know, you guys normally tip valets, doormen, bartenders (?!?!?!?!), and so on. I doubt any of these people are earning less than minimum wage. And along the same lines, why dont you tip fast-food workers? They provide a service just like the above workers, and I assume that they earn less than most of them.

edit: Also, my more cynical side says that one of the main reasons people leave large tips is to impress the people they are with (or to avoid looking 'cheap', which is pretty much the same thing). I'd assume that people tend to tip more when they are out on dates to try and show off (since comments like "I'd judge a person based on the size of tip he leaves" are essentially restatements of Worthington's Law: someone who can afford to leave a $20 tip is obviously just a better person than someone who can only afford to leave $5), and the same applies to business lunches and the like. Of course, this will be rationalised as rewarding high quality service, but at the end of the day, who wants to be 'that guy'?

Although I will mock this sort of behavior, I also admit that I would probably do the same if the situation called for it - if I were out at an important business lunch or whatever, I would try and ensure I didnt leave the smallest tip, even though I am poor and think the whole practice is stupid. But I bet Howard Roark wouldnt do this!!!

Edited by Hal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the reason why I find it proper to tip-- to reward objective value

I tip on a simple system. If I get an average looking waitress with average service I usually tip a dollar for a meal that's 7 or 8 dollars. If I get a hot waitress the tip can increase exponentially(...). If I get a male waiter he's only getting a dollar max in the above situation

heh

Edited by Hal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hal - I agree that the system is irrational. I should have stated that clearly in my last post. But that is why I said that Objectivism might take issue with the tipping culture - "expected tipping" is an irrational and nearly functionless social custom. However, I strongly believe that when one is aware of, and must act within this irrational context, the proper action is to continue to tip.

As an aside, there are some establishments that discourage their customers to tip. Most often I have seen this with food delivery companies. The pizza box might say something like "Our delivery staff is paid a reasonable wage, please do not tip the delivery person." I have also seen this at a lot of restaurants that offer prix-fix pricing. The price you see for the meal is just that - "tip" or rather, the cost of the table service, is included.

As another aside, it is my hypothesis (totally unproven as yet) that our current custom evolved from a system where waiters and waitresses were paid a "normal" wage, but then "extra" tipping started to become customary for whatever reasons. So now wage + tips came to a total that made waitering service overpayed. Like anything else, the laws of supply and demand made it so that at this new price point there was a much greater supply of waiters than demand. Restaurants lowered wages because they found that they could still staff their restaurant with people who understood that a major part of their wage would come from tips, which were becoming increasingly expected as a normal part of eating out. Now the system was in place where neither the customer nor the worker has any real say about the tip. On an individual, case-by-case basis, a worker can't choose to demand a wage and refuse tips, while a customer can't refuse to tip and demand that the restaurant pay the waiter for his service. While I disagree with all minumum wage laws, I'll point out the fact that the minumum wage for tip-earning jobs is about 40% of the regular minimum wage. Here in Philly, I know that the normal minumum wage is something around $5/hr, tip-based mimum wage is about $2.30 /hr. In other words, the lawmakers recognize that tipping is such an accepted part of our culture that they take it into consideration when commanding employers what to pay their staff.

One major disadvantage of our tipping custom is that it encourages discrimination on the part of the wait staff against its customers. Waitresses will fight over who gets to wait on a table of suits on an expense account. A bunch of foreigners, especially Asians and Europeans, will often get shoddy service, because it can almost be assumed that they will not leave a tip, simply because they are not familiar with the custom. One of the most refreshing experiences I had as a waiter was waiting on 3 Asian men who spoke no English whatsoever. One of them walked me around the restaurant and pointed at food at other people's table that he wanted to order. I was almost certain that they would leave no tip. I am not the kind of person who would give poor service on purpose because of that, but I simply accepted that I would probably be working for these guys for free and there was nothing I could do about it. There are some servers who, in the same situation, would almost ignore these guys. In the end, they left a very generous tip which I thought was pretty cool. So either they made a mistake, or, as I like to think, they were more savvy than they appeared.

I should also note that part of the frustration in being a waiter is the huge amount of confusion on the part of customers about tipping. There are people (mostly european tourists) who think they are being generous by throwing a buck or two on the table, after paying for a $50 meal. Then there are the worst types of people who see the tip as an excuse to torture the wait staff with unreasonable demands. On a busy day, I'd much rather get a 0 tip than deal with a total bitch. I think most people see 15 - 20% as a necessary custom, and then there are people (perhaps former waiters themselves) who tip 30 - 50% unpredictably. Recieving a huge tip is nice, but the randomness of it is at best, disconcerting. At worst, it makes you want to go out the back door and scream bloody hell at the world...

Anyway, sorry if my last post was a bit strongly worded. Waiting tables was often an incredibly frustrating experience for me, as it is for most servers. Looking back, the amount earned is fair for the work (if it weren't I would have quit long before I did, obviously), not to mention the advantages of having very flexible hours, but like I said, there are always many frustrating times. I strongly believe that in the context of the current system, it is important to leave at least a minimum tip. Anyway, I am still working on about 8 cups of coffee because I am preparing for an organic chemistry final scheduled for tonight. So I have to get back to work...

James

Edited by JamesDL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should add one more thing, because it gives a good insight into how much tipping is important to a waiter's total wage. Waiters make decent money overall. Don't let the 2.30 minimum wage make you think that waiters are struggling to eat. I made between $10 and $20 an hour overall, depending on how the shift was going. At least 80% of my income was tips. I don't make that much more money per hour as a lab tech (granted, also not a glamorous job :) ) but I have full benefits, and I am rapidly increasing my knowledge and skills here in the field I am interested in. Not true for waiting tables...

Depending on the establishment and city, servers can make as much or more, provided they know what they are doing, of course. Top waiters at top restaurants in NYC make 100k or more a year, and it's almost entirely in tips. At expensive fine-dining establishments, a single table can net a server $200 or more. If that server has 3 tables, and turns them over once in a night, that's damn good money. Of course, that would be a great night, and there are plenty of slow nights to counter the good ones.

Anyway, hope this insight helps in the contemplation of the issue.

Edited by JamesDL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, I am dismayed at the posts in which people claim to not leave a tip for merely OK service. Personally I will never leave less than 10% even for pretty terrible service.

Yikes, that's insane. If you get terrible service, you shouldn't PAY them a TIP for it.

1 - Waiters are often not paid AT ALL.
Do you believe that this fact is somehow the problem or the responsibility of the patrons? I don't think that what the waiter has or has not contracted with his employer to be paid should influence what I should pay him for my services. What he gets paid in wages is between him and his boss; it's not my responsibility.

Do you think it is?

The average % is usually around 18%.

Wow. It used to be a standard tip was 10%. Why would that change? Even with inflation, a percentage is a percentage.

So when you stiff a waiter, or leave $0.02, you are actually costing him a few bucks out of his pocket. Sure, maybethe service was so bad that he didn't deserve a tip - but was the service that bad that he should pay for you to have eaten there?
I've only done that twice in my life, and both times I'd say that the service was so bad that they should have to pay for me to have eaten there!

This also means that those people who think they are being a bit generous,by leaving a couple of bucks ae actually just giving the guy enough to tip out the help.

Any tip is an act of generosity. That's the very definition of a TIP.

Often, 'average' service is the best a waiter can hope to give despite his best efforts (ie: the restaurant might be understaffed that day so you have 15 tables in 3 disparate sections, there is a line out the door and the kitchen is an hour behind schedule...).
That argument is nonsensical. If he's so busy, he'll make it up in volume. I'm not going to pay for good service when I recieve poor service just because the waiter is busy. That's the very definition of "not my problem."

To say that 'average' service does not deserve a tip is to say that the waiter does not deserve to be paid for the value he is providing.

No, it isn't at all. The customer expects the employer to pay their staff a sufficient wage to keep them there. The price on the menu is the price of the meal. Anything extra is an act of generosity; a way of saying "you went above and beyond." If they did not at all go above or beyond, then there is no reason to "tip." The problem is that "tipping" has become standard, whereas its very definition contradicts it being so.

I do not argue that the majority act as if the tip were mandatory. But just because they act that way does not make it so.

Understand that the "base" price of eating out is the price on the menu plus 15% If you can't afford it, stay in.

Nope. I didn't sign any contract to that effect. You're the one who needs to understand: unless the menu says "plus 15%" on it, then the customer is under no obligation to do anything of the sort.

Oh, and just a remider that I've only "stiffed" two waiters in my life, and believe me: they deserved it. What I think is wrong with what you've said is that you speak of a tip as if it were the "obligation" of the customer. It isn't. It's something the waiter must earn by providing better than average service. Not just "service."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Despite what I just said, I think this is fair enough. Its understandable that in certain contexts, tipping is expected - you can say its part of the implicit contract when you go into a restaurant. Therefore if I was to go into a restaurant where tipping was implied and all parties knew this beforehand, I would leave a tip and mentally include it as being part of the meal price ("adding 15% onto the menu listing", as it were). However, you should note that this completely defeats the purpose of tipping. The idea is meant to be that tipping encourages good service, since it's performance related. But if you think people should tip regardless of the performance, then there is no longer any benefit and it becomes yet another irrational social custom.

I have to admit that this is basically what I do. If I can't afford to tip, then I simply don't go out; I order the food "to go." I don't think it's "fair enough," though. I think it's total nonsense. I resent it, but I can do little about it. The part I bolded I agree with especially and it nicely sums up my view.

Frankly, I don't care for service at all. It's not worth $5-10 to have someone walk some stuff from the kitchen to my table. I can order my own damn food and pour my own damn drinks. I don't understand why people pay so much for it.

Oh, and I would like to add that there is no sense at all in tipping by percentage. A $50 steak and wine dinner takes no more effort to bring to me than a $10 hamburger and soda.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly, I don't care for service at all. It's not worth $5-10 to have someone walk some stuff from the kitchen to my table. I can order my own damn food and pour my own damn drinks. I don't understand why people pay so much for it.

Inspector, have you heard of this restaurant chain?

:):o;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. I didn't sign any contract to that effect. You're the one who needs to understand: unless the menu says "plus 15%" on it, then the customer is under no obligation to do anything of the sort.

You havent signed any contract agreeing to pay for the food that youve just eaten either. However, it is implicit in the context of going to a restaurant that eating the food constitutes an agreement to purchase it (compare to eating food provided for you at someone's house, where a different social custom applies). I think the argument that tipping 10-15% is also implicit in the restaurant context is fairly sound, although the resulting system is silly.

Inspector, have you heard of this restaurant chain?

Fast food tastes nicer than most restaurant meals anyway (yeah I'm a philistine, sue me). But theres also buffets and the like, where you serve yourself.

Edited by Hal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You havent signed any contract agreeing to pay for the food that youve just eaten either. However, it is implicit in the context of going to a restaurant that eating the food constitutes an agreement to purchase it (compare to eating food provided for you at someone's house, where a different social custom applies). I think the argument that tipping 10-15% is also implicit in the restaurant context is fairly sound
Legally, the agreement to pay for your food is implicit; you can be arrested for failing to do so. There's no legal requirement to tip, unless the restaurant specifically requires it ("a 15% service charge will be added to the bill for parties of 8 or more").

theres also buffets and the like, where you serve yourself.

That brings up a question I've never known the answer to: what's the customary tip at a buffet? I wouldn't think it should be as much as the usual restaurant tip, but not zero either; they do clear the used plates off your table, and in some cases bring your drinks. I usually wind up leaving about 10%, but I have no idea if I'm being stingy or overly generous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inspector, have you heard of this restaurant chain?

:pirate::o:P

Their burgers don't taste like meat. But I do frequent Wendy's, Burger King, In-n-out Burger, Whataburger, Jack-in-the-box, and others. I no longer have access to Culvers or White Castle, but those are great, too.

Did I mention that cheeseburgers are my favorite food? :P

You havent signed any contract agreeing to pay for the food that youve just eaten either.

The food prices are on the menu. That's more than implied; that is a price listed for an item. There is no such system for most tips, therefore it is sheerly the generosity of the patrons, and not an obligation.

Edited by Inspector
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That argument is nonsensical. If he's so busy, he'll make it up in volume. I'm not going to pay for good service when I recieve poor service just because the waiter is busy. That's the very definition of "not my problem."

This isn't nonsensical. It is called considering the context of the person you are dealing with.

I have worked with some very professional waiters who take a lot of care knowing everything about the menu they are going to serve: what spices are in every dish in case of food allergies, and simply knowing the product they are selling, how it is prepared, what cut of meat, where it is from, etc. They know everything about their wine selection and what will go best with what food, and can even recommend the right cigar to go with the right port. They can set you up with a taxi or a chauffer service to go around town, they know the proper nightspots for different people, where to go and where not to, etc. To (all food service people in my current state have to do this by law but not every one I have lived in) taking classes in proper food handling and sanitation. To keeping their cool with people that don't deserve it.

You make it sound like (and maybe you eat at dives, I don't know) some lard ass walks up and down an aisle dumping plates from point A to point B. On a slow day that is what it can feel like and it is DEATH. The number of disparate concretes that a good waiter has to hold in his/her head at any time during a rush is in defiance of the crow epistemology; and that is if everything is going like a well oiled machine.

Often it does not, and I think it is my responsibilty to consider that context, and maybe I will not eat at that establishment again IF I can deem that it is soemthing about the establishment itself and not the fact that the gas main blew a leak 30 minutes before I came in. But I will not sit there like some Niles and Frasier Crane and blithely ignore facts because it is "not my problem", that it is "not my problem" is "not the point".

I find some of the attitudes here disturbing, and I hope some of you don't frequent any establishments. One reason (besides being in the business so long) I tip so well is they are ultimately in control of what end of me that food comes back out. I want them well paid and motivated for my own personal safety.

Though I don't tip on the principle of extortion, I enjoy giving a nice fat tip. I do 18% or so for average (that means no problems, but nothing stood out, but that can vary for waitresses as I have a "butt tip" system) to 35% for excellent. If I've had a smash of a time I might just leave 50%. I guarantee you I'm getting that table and my meal long before you. I also, if I am going to be picky, send a few bucks back into the kitchen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inspector: I agree, you are not obligated to leave a tip, and I believe you that you are a reasonable tipper. I have never stiffed a server because usually it is not their fault that my food took 45 minutes to come out. I would only leave no tip if I felt they were intentionally trying to ruin my night. If the service is slow and they are obviously in chaos control mode, but they remain freindly, apologetic and accomodating about it, then they deserve to be paid for their effort. Your responses ignore the main point of my argument, which is that the social custom in the U.S. has evolved to the point that tipping a minimum amount, 10 - 15%, is customary to the point of being expected. This is evidenced by the fact that nearly all restaurants pay their servers either nothing at all, or a legal minimum wage that is less that half the regular minimum wage (again, I am not advocating any minimum wage). Based on the wage alone, this is hardly fair compensation for the job that servers have. They are compensated in "tips". As I hypothesized in my previous post, the word "tip" originated as something different than what it has come to mean today. The tip is no longer a bonus reward for good service; it is how servers are paid for their labor. Of course, any decent server still goes out of his way to earn a bigger tip, which is, of course, a positive thing on several levels. However, when one leaves no tip, after recieving acceptable service, he is depriving his server of a value they rightly deserve. Most people understand that the establishment does not pay the major part of a server's wage. Are you legally obligated to leave the tip? Of course not. But you are not legally obligated to do many things that are nevertheless morally proper. Is the "system" irrational? Yes it is, and this is what leads to a lot of frustration and confusion, mostly on the part of restaurant workers. But within the context of this system, it is proper to regard 10 - 15% as simply the price you pay for the service, as opposed to seeing any amount of tip as a generosity.

And as far as the price being on the menu... not at all restaurants... if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Hal: Fast food tastes nicer than most restaurant meals? Yikes, what restaurants are you eating at?

Edited by JamesDL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...the main point of my argument, which is that the social custom in the U.S. has evolved to the point that tipping a minimum amount, 10 - 15%, is customary to the point of being expected.

I concede that. Which is why I do in fact tip that as a minimum. But I don't have to like it, agree with it, or think it rational. I guess that's where I'm going.

This isn't nonsensical. It is called considering the context of the person you are dealing with...

Perhaps you could explain this more. The way I see it, a tip is a payment for a service. A big tip is a payment for extraordinary service. A small tip is a payment for poor service. If the service is poor due to the establishment being busy, why should I still leave an average or large tip? Why should I be concerned that the waiter didn't mean for my service to be poor? I didn't recieve good service; ergo I don't leave a big tip. As I said, if the waiter is sooooo busy, then he can make it up with a lot of little tips.

If that is wrong, I'd like to know why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps you could explain this more. The way I see it, a tip is a payment for a service. A big tip is a payment for extraordinary service. A small tip is a payment for poor service. If the service is poor due to the establishment being busy, why should I still leave an average or large tip? Why should I be concerned that the waiter didn't mean for my service to be poor? I didn't recieve good service; ergo I don't leave a big tip. As I said, if the waiter is sooooo busy, then he can make it up with a lot of little tips.

If that is wrong, I'd like to know why.

In the original example of JamesDL, it was not that it was busy period. It was busy,and there were extenuating circumstances outside of the waiter's control. Surely, it is not his fault that they are short staffed. Neither is it yours, nor indeed is it your problem. But I see no reason to punish him if I see him doing his job efficiently and maybe even superlatively under the circumstances.

The tip to the waiter is for his services to you that you can reasonably judge to be under his control. Some are and some are not. The amount of your bill is for all other goods and services that you have received. If the circumstances outside of his control lead inevitably to bad service, I would consider removing my money from the establishment itself. If enough people do this, if it is systemic enough, the waiter will also leave where he can be unfettered in his efforts to be rewarded by your tips. I see no reason to make him suffer if he is not the cause of your diminished experience.

For the same reason, if my cable goes out and I have to call them out, I don't chew out the poor bastard on the other end. His feelings aren't my problem, nor is it my problem that it isn't his fault, that doesn't mean that I get to treat him like meat (which a lot of people do).

As I said, if the waiter is sooooo busy, then he can make it up with a lot of little tips.

Is the "sooooo" condescension? As a former waiter myself I find a lot of people's attitude on this subject insulting. Of course, I didn't take sh** from customers, you'd been out on yer ass mate!

PS. I cook now. I do $14 hr + tips. Ahh, life ain't fair... :pirate:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing, I never consider anything outside of a context. The waiter and I define a context, a relationship, in which he is trying to earn money directly from me. I have to judge his performance by the standards of his context - what is reasonable within his power to control. I do not expect him to be at two places at once, do other people's job, repair the plumbing, don a cape and play the fiddle. I do him an injustice if I lazily don't consider the context, and I do myself an injustice by not dealing with men I trade with with all the rationality they deserve and I expect.

I see this as no different than any other economic transaction or profession.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is the "system" irrational? Yes it is

But I don't have to like it, agree with it, or think it rational. I guess that's where I'm going.

Who do you guys think is acting irrationally? The patrons, for giving tips? The restaurants, for factoring tips into wages? The waiters, for taking a job with low wages and high tips?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thinking of the economics of it, I believe it must have been patrons who initially began over tipping. Perhaps it became customary to impress your friends or date with a huge tip, one in excess of the actual value of the service recieved. I imagine that at this point in history, waiters also received a wage which was their primary means of compensation. As the customary tip increased to 10-15% or more, waiters were receiving a greater value than they produced, which in turn lead to an over-supply of waiters. Hence, the restaurants began to lower the wage they paid their servers, while still finding plenty of people willing to work for the reduced wage, which is a simple application of the laws of supply and demand. Eventaully, tips alone were enough to fully compensate servers, so restaurants didn't have to pay anything at all.

So, going back to the beggining of this story, it was patrons who started this irrational system long ago. This really was long ago, as my dad tells me stories about when he waited tables in the 50's and that he also recieved no wage, although he ate for free. I think it's unlikely that restaurants or severs could have started it. If restaurants had lowered wages first, servers would have quit, and I don't see how servers could have started demanding tips and refusing pay.

I suppose this means that it is up to rational patrons to reverse this system. However, I don't think it is worth starting a country-wide campaign to stiff your server today, so that he will be paid by his employer tomorrow. Perhaps restaurants could start making it clear that the "tip" is included into the price of every item on the menu. However, I don't think customers would take to this very well, and the restaurants that started such a move would be less competitive than restaurants that didn't.

In the end, I see it as similar to the argument to switch to metric. Imperial is arbitrary and irrational. Metric is simple and elegant. But is it worth the cost of switching?

Edited by JamesDL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's unlikely that restaurants or severs could have started it. If restaurants had lowered wages first, servers would have quit, and I don't see how servers could have started demanding tips and refusing pay.

LOL, of course it is the patrons who initiate tipping, but that was not my question!

What you call "the system" is sustained by three parties--the patrons, the owners, and the staff--and if "the system" is irrational, then at least one of the parties must be acting against their long-term rational self-interest. (At least according to my definition of irrational!) Any one of the three could change "the system," but none of them seems to want to--even though, as you contend, "the system" goes against the long-term interests of at least one of them. So my question is, which of these three groups has its interests harmed by "the system," and why?

In the end, I see it as similar to the argument to switch to metric. Imperial is arbitrary and irrational. Metric is simple and elegant. But is it worth the cost of switching?

That would be a topic of its own, and certainly not one belonging on this thread, but let me just remark that breaking your tongue on an awkward four-syllable word when talking about how much you've traveled is anything but simple and elegant!

Edited by Capitalism Forever
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree completely that tipping is not obligatory at all, and that's what I love about it. To me, it speaks of a great deal of benevolence in the industry. Seriously, how many of us in other professions would agree to perform the required work first and then 'depend' on the ability of our customers to recognize the values we have provided them with and then pay us accordingly? I think it is a testamount to the good still left in the people in the US that it works as well as it does. That people will perform a service and rely on the goodwill and honest assessment of their customers to recieve their pay-which could be nothing at all- is fairly incredible. It shows a very sincere trust in the honesty of your fellow men and I personally find it heart-warming that that trust is so rarely misplaced.

They do not charge the owner or the customers ahead of time for their wages. If they did, then meals would be a good deal more expensive then they are, sense in all probability there would be a mark-up in the cost of the labor. Another downside is that you would be paying them the same amount regardless of their level of service.

If it were at all practical, I would love to be able to pay everyone based on their performance. Imagine going to a doctor, who did a poor job. You waited a long time, were treated poorly, and given the wrong medicine. You would not have to pay him for what he, ultimately, didn't do. Several years ago, I brought a computer into a place to have it worked on. He was "unable to fix it" but I was required to pay a $30 service fee anyways. Still not sure what I bought that day, but my computer was collateral, so I had to pay it to get it back. Would have loved for him to be paid based on performance.

Generally I do not view people who do not tip as immoral. After all, there is no obligation to tip, right? They use no force to seperate someone from their belongongs. However, I do view them as being shortsighted and without class. Meaning, you maybe should spend a day as a waiter before deciding that they are providing you with no value. It really does involve a good deal more then picking up a plate and walking it across the room. I do cut some slack for the folks across the pond, since waiters there are paid in the same way everyone else is. And I would not hold not tipping in england, for example, against anyone. However, while here, if you know better, then you ought to. Cultural norms like that are usually not worth trying to change. When in Rome, do as the romans do-so long as it's not immoral.

I mean seriously, would you refuse to eat with chopsticks in Japan, or refuse to eat with your fingers in Nepal? Chopsticks are less efficient and fingers are less sanitary, but so what? Is it worth offending your host? Same thing here. You can say that you would prefer it to be like it is elsewhere, but refusing to pay is not likely to change that. You'd be better off writing op-eds against tipping. Or not paying a tip and then informing the waitress that they ought to ask for hire wages so as to allow you to not participate in our silly performance based wage system. Then it might have some effect. And if it did. If we eliminate tips altogether, how much better is the world really going to be if you pay $18.50 for a meal instead of $10.95+$3.00 tip?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the original example of JamesDL, it was not that it was busy period. It was busy,and there were extenuating circumstances outside of the waiter's control. Surely, it is not his fault that they are short staffed. Neither is it yours, nor indeed is it your problem. But I see no reason to punish him if I see him doing his job efficiently and maybe even superlatively under the circumstances.

I still don't see how being short staffed means I should have to pay extra when I get poor serice as a result of it. Like any other transaction, I pay for services rendered. If the services are not rendered, I don't see why I should pay. If the grocery store is short staffed and therefore has not stocked their shelves, should I pay them for the food I don't take home, just because they tried really hard? If the gas station does not have any gasoline, should I pay them anyway if I'm convinced it's due to circumstances out of their control?

If not, then why should I pay a tip for good service when I don't recieve it due to short staffing? Yes, it is not his fault. Nor is it my fault.

I mean, if I'm missing something here, I'd like to know it. :devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't see how being short staffed means I should have to pay extra when I get poor serice as a result of it.

I mean, if I'm missing something here, I'd like to know it. B)

I was speaking of punishing the management/owner. I care who's at fault for something.

I don't think I could ever make you see it. I could not possibly be more clear. But, hey, by the sounds of it, most of the people here are just drooling to find a reason to stiff the waiter anyway, and probably would have fun making fun of him, and making him look bad. That isn't not my game, nor my style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I care who's at fault for something.

So do I. For example, I care that I am not at fault for the poor service that happens when a place is short-staffed. So therefore money will not leave my pocket. I don't pay "pity" money to people whose managers put them in bad positions; I pay for services rendered. No services, no pay.

What about my examples before? I've thought of a better one: what if I special order a book from a book store, and the shipment is destroyed by a hurricane? The hurricane isn't the book store's fault, but I surely wouldn't pay them for the book that they didn't give me.

I asked you if I should pay in those circumstances, and if not then why should I do the opposite for the waiter? Is there something that makes the situations noncomparable that I'm not seeing?

I don't think I could ever make you see it. I could not possibly be more clear.

Please, I asked that question in seriousness. I respect your opinions and if you have a case to present I am listening. As I said, I've only stiffed two waiters in my life, and both of them deserved it. I don't agree with the "mandatory tipping" system that exists, but I still abide by it when I go out (which is infrequent) because I know that "shrugging" wouldn't hurt anyone who deserved it. I've never made fun of a waiter or done anything to try to make one look bad. (I also must have missed it where anyone said anything of the sort in this thread)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about my examples before? I've thought of a better one: what if I special order a book from a book store, and the shipment is destroyed by a hurricane? The hurricane isn't the book store's fault, but I surely wouldn't pay them for the book that they didn't give me.

I asked you if I should pay in those circumstances, and if not then why should I do the opposite for the waiter? Is there something that makes the situations noncomparable that I'm not seeing?

You are mssing something, yes. In the case of the book, there is shipping insurance available. If you take it, then the insurer will cover the lost book (either to the shipper or to you, it doesn't matter). If you don't, then you're very likley stuck with the costs; it would depend on the bookseller's specific policies.

For tipping, I do take into account how crowded a restaurant looks, particularly when it's a place I frequent. If I'm told they're short-staffed, I have the option of staying or going ellsewhere. I take that into account, too. Also how the waiter performs.

Service won't be as good if the palce is short-staffed, true. But a bad waiter can make sub-par service into lousy service. A good one can turn it into not-so-sub-par.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...