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Concerto of Atlantis

Love at first sight

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Here is what I think it is based on my feelings for my dance instructor: a strong mental and physical attraction. The two are fully integrated. I learned a lot about her mind from her body language. It isn't love, but it is a strong desire to get to know both her mind and body better. I say both because she is both, not just one or the other.

On a side note, I better understand the mind-body integration now that I understand how the body can show you about the mind.

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Kane: It's funny that topic should come up, because my girlfriend has just finished reading The Fountainhead, and one thing that she didn't get, and I've had trouble identifying myself, is Ayn Rand's fascination with body language. It fills up so much of the book - the taught lines of Roark's body compared to the flabs of fat spilling out of the neck of Keating's shirt by the end.

How easy do you think it is to read body language, and how deceptive can it be? I find I spend so much time, watching people on the bus or on the train, trying to judge them by their body language, and I think I let myself be too judgmental because of it.

It is Lust at First Sight. Love comes later (if at all) when one gets to know the object of his/her Lust.

If the physical yen were all there was, then why bother with live girls (or boys)? A party doll would do just as well. Clearly Lust is one part of the story, but it is an important part.

Bob Kolker

But that's the point - physical yearning isn't all there is, and it's the reason why a blow up doll wouldn't do. One forms a physical yearning from intellectual judgements about the person. That's what Jenni is saying, that there is no strictly physical desire, because all desires flow from some mental integration.

Lust could quite well be defined as an anti-concept, along with Greed (it's no surprise that they're both great sins in the Catholic church). The idea of 'lust' is invented just to give the idea that there's some mystical - often dirty - pull that your body creates towards other bodies.

Perhaps you could define, strictly, what does lust mean?

Edited by Tenure

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I think that love at first sight is not feasible. Love requires a fairly intimate level of knowledge of a person, or at least more than I think can be gathered that early on in what might or might be the start of some sort of relationship, I just dont see how anyone could learn enough from one so soon.

Being smitten, or such, some strong, strong form of attraction to me seems very possible if the subject of your admiration is very good at expressing their values, you are good at picking such hints up and you understand what you are seeing and how they fit in with your own values. What you feel at that stage might be a strong precursor to love even.

It might later seem like it was love, when really it was not, due to the strength of the emotion.

I think Kanes situation with the dancer might somewhat of a good example of my views.

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Urge to satisfy appetite and desire. Lust for food, lust for sexual contact etc. etc.

Bob Kolker

So, sexual contact/love is a physical meter that must be filled up? One has a kind of stomach for love, that needs to be filled and emptied regularly?

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So, sexual contact/love is a physical meter that must be filled up? One has a kind of stomach for love, that needs to be filled and emptied regularly?

Read what I wrote. That is Lust, not Love.

Bob Kolker

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Kane: It's funny that topic should come up, because my girlfriend has just finished reading The Fountainhead, and one thing that she didn't get, and I've had trouble identifying myself, is Ayn Rand's fascination with body language. It fills up so much of the book - the taught lines of Roark's body compared to the flabs of fat spilling out of the neck of Keating's shirt by the end.

How easy do you think it is to read body language, and how deceptive can it be? I find I spend so much time, watching people on the bus or on the train, trying to judge them by their body language, and I think I let myself be too judgmental because of it.

Well, I would be careful about the selective use of body language in art, and the interpretation of it in everyday life.

Trying to interpret body language as anything else than a possible indicator of someone's values, or thoughts is a form of pschologizing, IMO.

The reason it works in art, is that the proper artist has already filtered out all the aspects of body language that do not go to the intended feeling or value.

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that there is no strictly physical desire, because all desires flow from some mental integration.

In those situations, when faced with a physically attractive person, people often fill in the gaps of their knowledge about the other person favorably (achieving that mental integration) - which intensifies their attraction beyond what is actually supported by facts. Their initial judgment may or may not be true.

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In those situations, when faced with a physically attractive person, people often fill in the gaps of their knowledge about the other person favorably (achieving that mental integration) - which intensifies their attraction beyond what is actually supported by facts. Their initial judgment may or may not be true.
That made me laugh a little, with the sad truth of what you said here. :lol: At least, if my own personal experience is anything to go by.I just want to clarify, however, that lust implies some sort of... sensual desire, and that that is impossible for a man, because a desire flows from the mind (assuming that desire is the feeling of wanting a value/values)?
Read what I wrote. That is Lust, not Love.Bob Kolker
But I don't understand than - does lust = desire then? What differentiates ones desire for something, from ones lust for it? What tips it into the field of lust?

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I think Robert needs to give a comprehensive defintion/explanation and somre (more? I dont recall him giving any) examples of what he considers lust to be.

As far as I can tell the sort of lust he means would be the sort that Jen says in an anti-concept. I agree with her as far as the word lust is usually used. It seems to apply to what Robert is talking about as well.

As it stands:

"Urge to satisfy appetite and desire. Lust for food, lust for sexual contact etc. etc. "

Is a very poor definition. I can only assume the second part is in fact meant to be an example. Well if so, its a pretty useless one...

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Kane: It's funny that topic should come up, because my girlfriend has just finished reading The Fountainhead, and one thing that she didn't get, and I've had trouble identifying myself, is Ayn Rand's fascination with body language. It fills up so much of the book - the taught lines of Roark's body compared to the flabs of fat spilling out of the neck of Keating's shirt by the end.

Oh, well, what a fluke!

How easy do you think it is to read body language, and how deceptive can it be? I find I spend so much time, watching people on the bus or on the train, trying to judge them by their body language, and I think I let myself be too judgmental because of it.

I didn't really conciously read her body language. It was subconcious and I didn't realise what my subconciousness had read until I done some introspection.

But that's the point - physical yearning isn't all there is, and it's the reason why a blow up doll wouldn't do. One forms a physical yearning from intellectual judgements about the person. That's what Jenni is saying, that there is no strictly physical desire, because all desires flow from some mental integration.

Agreed. That is why I say I want to get to know the body and mind of my instructor, because of the mind-body integration.

I think that love at first sight is not feasible. Love requires a fairly intimate level of knowledge of a person, or at least more than I think can be gathered that early on in what might or might be the start of some sort of relationship, I just dont see how anyone could learn enough from one so soon.

I am not sure if you read the earlier posts I made, but that is what I was saying months ago.

Being smitten, or such, some strong, strong form of attraction to me seems very possible if the subject of your admiration is very good at expressing their values, you are good at picking such hints up and you understand what you are seeing and how they fit in with your own values. What you feel at that stage might be a strong precursor to love even.

I think Kanes situation with the dancer might somewhat of a good example of my views.

Yeah, I think what I am is smitten.

Trying to interpret body language as anything else than a possible indicator of someone's values, or thoughts is a form of pschologizing, IMO.

Agreed. That is one reason why I say I want to get to know my instructor better; I want to find out if those possible indicators are correct.

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lust

I think lust is to sex what appetite is to eating: a state of consciousness that encourages you to do it, not by means of awareness of a disvalue you are incurring by not doing it (as is the case with hunger) but by a positive emotional response to the thought of doing it.

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I think lust is to sex what appetite is to eating: a state of consciousness that encourages you to do it, not by means of awareness of a disvalue you are incurring by not doing it (as is the case with hunger) but by a positive emotional response to the thought of doing it.

From the hierachial online dictioinary WorldNet-Online:

lust

Noun lust has 2 senses

  1. lecherousness, lust, lustfulness - a strong sexual desire
    --1 is a kind of sexual desire, concupiscence, physical attraction
    Derived form: verb lust1
  2. lust, luxuria - self-indulgent sexual desire (personified as one of the deadly sins)
    --2 is a kind of mortal sin, deadly sin
    Derived form: verb lust1

Verb lust has 1 sense

  1. <A href=http://www.wordnet-online.com/crave.shtml">crave, hunger, thirst, starve, lust - have a craving, appetite, or great desire for
    --1 is one way to desire, want
    Derived forms: noun lust1, noun lust2

So it seems you are correct and that lust is not an anti-concept. As most people mean it, yes it is, but under the proper definition no. As Objectivists and students of Objectivism we know that there is nothing wrong with, "a strong sexual desire," or, "self-indulgent sexual desire ," or, "have a craving, appetite, or great desire for," as long as it is kept in proper context. in this case, an interest in mind and body.

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A strong sexual desire? That is not a good definition. What sets it apart from other possible sorts of strong sexual desire?

Edited by Prometheus98876

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A strong sexual desire? That is not a good definition. What sets it apart from other possible sorts of strong sexual desire?

That is the thing. I think it means any sexual desire, so there is no other sorts.

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I have changed my mind about whether or not LaFS is possible. I have realised that I love her and have since I first saw her. Whether or not that love is misplaced and whether or not it will last is a separate issue. What matters for now is that it is love.

What lead to my change of mind? Introspection. I realised my feelings for her fit the term "love" and that they feel a lot like when I was in love with another girl.

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Sorry...but I don't believe in love at first sight....I need to know the person very well before I fall in love. B)

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Isn't there such a thing as fear at first sight? Or hate at first sight? If so, why can't there be love at first sight?

A first-sight emotion is probably not reliable, considering how little data it is based on, but sometimes when you learn more, you learn nothing that would cause that first emotion to change, so it turns out to have been right.

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Sorry...but I don't believe in love at first sight....I need to know the person very well before I fall in love. :thumbsup:

Okay, so for you to love a man it has to be conditional in this case. Great! ...but why, in another thread, did you want a man to love you unconditionally?

Edited by intellectualammo

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Isn't there such a thing as fear at first sight? Or hate at first sight? If so, why can't there be love at first sight?

A first-sight emotion is probably not reliable, considering how little data it is based on, but sometimes when you learn more, you learn nothing that would cause that first emotion to change, so it turns out to have been right.

An emotional response as such cannot be right or wrong. Or mistaken, for that matter. If anything changes it's either the underlying integrations you have made that cause this response, or what you know about the other person changes significantly enough that you will respond in a different way towards them emotionally.

Emotions are not causeless, so in a way they *are* reliable. A certain emotional response does tell you that something about a person evokes a very strong reaction from you. There is nothing that can be mistaken about that. What does not follow from an emotion is a certain course of action that you should take.

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An emotional response as such cannot be right or wrong. Or mistaken, for that matter. If anything changes it's either the underlying integrations you have made that cause this response, or what you know about the other person changes significantly enough that you will respond in a different way towards them emotionally.

Emotions are not causeless, so in a way they *are* reliable. A certain emotional response does tell you that something about a person evokes a very strong reaction from you. There is nothing that can be mistaken about that. What does not follow from an emotion is a certain course of action that you should take.

Of course a part of the mental process that lead to the emotion might be incorrect. You could make a bad judgement/analysis, or think something about them that is not true. But the emotion itself is not wrong because it is still a reaction to something you value.

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Love at first sight?.......No, but definetely LUST at first sight. I have had that happen, and the end result after using all other means of evaluating a person other than vision, I have usually found out that it was exactly that, just lust. Love is such a complex emotion, and based on so many factors that is is virtually impossible to actually love someone on first sight and based on using vision alone.

But lust, oh yeah.....and if and when that has occurred with me, more so when I was younger, as I began to know the person more and realized that I only had a visual (physical) attraction to her I found that I would begin to evade other signs about the person that I just knew were things that I didn't like about her as a person. Fortunately, lust (an all that it could encompass: infactuation sometimes) as a reaction to how someone looks combines with a still yet unexplained chemical reaction that man can have to pheromones and the neurological sensations that occurr when physically attracted to a person and only the person's body seems to get old after a while. But that primitive primal physical attraction and lust that at times can defy logic and reason or give a man a way to evade logic and reason (despite it's consequences) could be what enabled primitive man to procreate at a stage of human development when it hardly made sense to take on a mate and create children when mankind's development was at such a level that even survival itself was hard.

jws1776

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*** Mod's note: Merged into an existing topic. - sN ***

Clearly there are cases where people feel like they have fallen in love instantly and go on to lead long healthy relationships. Is this just lust initially that develops into love for some? Are they mistaken to label it as true romantic love from the very beginning?

Edited by softwareNerd
merged topics

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Really loving someone requires that you know who they are, so I don't think you attain the most profound stage of love the moment you meet them. However, I think falling in love with someone is more of a sense of life issue that is perfectly possible when you meet them, because you can sense their SoL directly. And that is definitely more than just wanting them sexually.

But I think it does take time and getting to know them better before that advances beyond the first stage and becomes full out romantic love in the sense where you say: this person is incredibly important to me and they make my life better for being in it.

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