Capitalism Forever Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 "All holidays are morally equal." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 "... but some are more equal than others." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 By whom? The problem is you're using some vague "they" to make judgements on the merits of a holiday. If you don't like the way someone you know celebrates Kwanzaa, fine, but don't use that to make general statements. I thought by context it was obvious that I meant the black racists that celebrate this "holiday". I can assure you that I don't dance around naming something, even if it has to do with "race", purposely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 On another forum, someone asked this: "St. Patrick's day is a celebration of Irish culture. Those who complain about Kwaanza should complain about St. Patrick's day. Why are they silent?" [paraphrased] Are the two celebrations similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Are the two celebrations similar?Similar, yes: sufficiently similar, no. St. Patrick's day is in reality just a party; historically it is connected to a Catholic saint and is a 1-day celebration of life when you are liberated from the miserable existence of the Lenten season. As an nominally ethnic holiday, it's no better or worse than any other nominally ethnic holiday. Kwanzaa distinguishes itself by being deliberately racist, in not reflecting any historical fact, and in distorting reality (it is not an "African holiday"). In addition, the Catholic and Irish underpinnings are largely historical antecedents and not relevant to contemporary St. Paddie's day -- in the US, it originally was -- hundreds of years ago, before there was a US -- about nostalgia for the old sod, and yes it was an ethnic holiday that became important as a way of overcoming anti-Irish racist, but that was generations ago when prople really didn't know better. Kwanzaa is actively associated with the advocacy of a slew of altruistic, collectivist principles, and having been invented in the modern era when people should know better, there is no excuse for perpetuating racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.West Posted March 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I second the above by David. I'm against a holiday that blends loud drunkenness with a forgotten celebration of mass Christian conversion of a population. But its danger in today's context is physical rather than philosophical, e.g. drunk drivers, "date-rapes", alcohol poisoning, etc., rather than new converts to Christianity. I've never gone out for drinks to "celebrate" the holiday. However, I did put out green socks for my 4 year old daughter to wear today, so she wouldn't get pinched at her Montessori school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterrose Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 St. Patrick's day is in reality just a party... As an nominally ethnic holiday, it's no better or worse than any other nominally ethnic holiday. Kwanzaa distinguishes itself by being deliberately racist, in not reflecting any historical fact, and in distorting reality (it is not an "African holiday"). In addition, the Catholic and Irish underpinnings are largely historical antecedents and not relevant to contemporary St. Paddie's day -- Kwanzaa is actively associated with... Then by similar logic, St. Paddy's is deliberately religious, deliberately racist, and distorts reality ( "saint," i.e. miracles?) But, while St. Paddy's has historical antecedent to mitigate being racist and irrational, Kwanzaa does not, and therefore is unpardonably racist? So... Kwanzaa too becomes just a party once a couple hundred years have passed? What does "actively associated" mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Then by similar logic, St. Paddy's is deliberately religious, deliberately racist, and distorts reality ( "saint," i.e. miracles?) But, while St. Paddy's has historical antecedent to mitigate being racist and irrational, Kwanzaa does not, and therefore is unpardonably racist?The difference is "usta be, centuries ago" vs. "is, right now". I don't make concrete predictions for the future of Kwanzaa. However, it is very unlikely to become a party, because it isn't a celebration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterrose Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 So... some people whom you know who celebrate St. Paddy's do it as a secular party, and you similarly know people who celebrate Kwanzaa as a collectivist act of racism, and you believe this applies to all respective celebraters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 some people whom you know who celebrate St. Paddy's do it as a secular partyMore accurately, all.and you similarly know people who celebrate Kwanzaa as a collectivist act of racism, and you believe this applies to all respective celebraters?All evidence that I know of points to that conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 (edited) I had no idea that anyone other than Irish Loyalists considered St Patrick's day a religious holiday; everyone I know that celebrates it does so because they like Ireland, not because they view it being a Catholic festival. However, you could still argue that its collectivist, since its essentailly a nationalist holiday. I personally find the "Lets all love Ireland! Arent Irish people quirky and fun?!" mentality to be fairly distasteful, albeit less so than African-American pride. But then again, I find most displays of patriotism distasteful; I think growing up in Scotland put me off it for life :/ St Patricks day is a Catholic holiday in the same sense that Chistmas and Easter are. Historically they may have been born out of religion, but that isnt the reason most people celebrate them today. For all intents and purposes, they are secular. Edited March 18, 2006 by Hal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterrose Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 All evidence that I know of points to that conclusion.Ah. Then this is simply a case of you being around the wrong Kwanzaa celebraters. I personally know people who celebrate Kwanzaa, and don't express it in a racist fashion. In fact, I've never personally known someone to use Kwanzaa as a racist expression. I dare say that while my good Kwanzaaists might not make the holiday "good," the Kwanzaa celebraters you know don't make the holiday "bad" either. Historically [st. Paddy's, Easter, Xmas] may have been born out of [irrationality,] but that isnt the reason most people celebrate them today. For all intents and purposes, they are secular.I agree, though I would also say that most people celebrate Kwanzaa in an innocuous way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 In fact, I've never personally known someone to use Kwanzaa as a racist expression.When you get a chance, can you ask them what the justification for Kwanza is (I've had enough with that stupid double-a: hakuna neno 'kwanzaa')? We have a wealth of winter holidays, and there is nothing at all that justifies Kwanza over Xmas, which is a quite respectable celebration (as long as you don't get caught up in the Xian crowd). The only reason for having Kwanza that I know of is because Xmas claimed to be a whiteman's holiday. If the justification for adding Kwanza isn't racism, then what is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 It's only a matter of time before a Muslim version of Xmas comes out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 (edited) It's only a matter of time before a Muslim version of Xmas comes out. I think Eid normally occurs around that time (give or take a month or so). This seems like a strange comment though; do you have a problem with Jews celebrating Hanukkah rather than Christmas as their primary winter festival? (assuming that this is primarilly an argument about minorities who dont accept the traditions of the dominant culture). Christmas is a historically Christian holiday, so it would be understandable if members of other religions wanted to have nothing to do with it. This isnt related to the Kwaanza thing though, since thats an issue of race rather than religion. A Muslim 'version' of Christmas would make a lot more sense than a black version. Edited March 19, 2006 by Hal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Christmas is a historically Christian holiday, so it would be understandable if members of other religions wanted to have nothing to do with it.It's really a pagan holiday, co-opted by the church.A Muslim 'version' of Christmas would make a lot more sense than a black version.There's a structural problem with that, that the calendar wanders about 10 days per year, so that any holiday can be at any time of year throughout your life. Because other calendars have correction factors, Hannukah and Xmas get to be around the same time of year, but the Muslim calendar is irreparably doomed to wander, so after a decade, it would be totally non-obvious that `id al-Kalb was really a Muslim Xmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 (edited) It's really a pagan holiday, co-opted by the church.I disagree. When youre looking for the essentials of a holiday, going back ~1500 years isnt very useful. Christmas has been primarilly Christian until very recently (less than 100 years), and even today, it has obvious connotations with Christianity. There's a structural problem with that, that the calendar wanders about 10 days per year, so that any holiday can be at any time of year throughout your life. Because other calendars have correction factors, Hannukah and Xmas get to be around the same time of year, but the Muslim calendar is irreparably doomed to wander, so after a decade, it would be totally non-obvious that `id al-Kalb was really a Muslim Xmas. I was under the impression that despite not having a fixed date Eid still always occurred around November, but apparently I'm wrong. Edited March 19, 2006 by Hal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 (edited) I disagree. When youre looking for the essentials of a holiday, going back ~1500 years isnt very useful. Christmas has been primarilly Christian until very recently (less than 100 years), and even today, it has obvious connotations with Christianity.So do you mean that it was a mistake for you to say that Xmas is a historically Christian holiday? 'Cuz either it is one or it isn't one.I was under the impression that despite not having a fixed date Eid still always occurred around November, but apparently I'm wrong.`id is a general word meaning "festival", and the two general ones are `id al-Fitr and `id al-Adha. Iran has stretched the standards a bit with `id al-Ghadir, which is a Shite festival. Edited March 19, 2006 by DavidOdden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 (edited) So do you mean that it was a mistake for you to say that Xmas is a historically Christian holiday?It is tradtionally a Christian holiday. However, by 'history'/'tradition' here I do not mean ~1500 years ago. .`id is a general word meaning "festival", and the two general ones are `id al-Fitr and `id al-Adha. Iran has stretched the standards a bit with `id al-Ghadir, which is a Shite festival. Eid is generally taken to be short for "Eid ul-Fitr" (your first one). All the Muslims I know normally just call it 'Eid' anyway. Edited March 19, 2006 by Hal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 When youre looking for the essentials of a holiday If you look at the essence of Christmas, you'll find that it has nothing to do with Christianity. I didn't even know that Christmas was a Christian holiday until I was about 10 years old, when my German teacher told me in class. We had celebrated it every year, complete with tree, gifts, and carols, but my parents--who were still trying to be "good Communists" at the time--had always represented it to me as "the Holiday of Love." I remember how surprised I was when I learned that it was actually a celebration of Christ's birth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Dont you live in some heathen European country though? I doubt you could grow up in Britain and not know it was about Jesus, and I assume America is far worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Dont you live in some heathen European country though? I doubt you could grow up in Britain and not know it was about Jesus, and I assume America is far worse. Yes, you would know it was about Jesus--and that's pretty much all. Now if, say, it were a "holiday" where you were slapped on your face by your relatives and then required to turn them your other cheek so they could slap you again--then it would be an essentially Christian holiday. Or if the people who decry the "commercialization" of Christmas had their way, then it might be an essentially Christian holiday. But, as Christmas is now, it's all about trade, wealth, individualism, deserved love, and--above all--a material expression of ideals. I believe it is no stretch to say that Christmas, in its essence, is an Objectivist holiday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Dont you live in some heathen European country though? I doubt you could grow up in Britain and not know it was about Jesus, and I assume America is far worse. Christmas is about Mr. Hankey. I saw it on television. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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