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The Value Of Small Talk

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People follow existing social and economic systems because it is better than starting from scratch themselves... usually. Otherwise, they start from (relative) scratch! You don't try to replace a civilization's division of labor because you would not be better off for doing so. Instead, you work within the system, but that work is still chosen independently. All along the way, you are making independent choices for yourself as to what would be the best course of action.

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You can be "independent" all you want -- in your brain. But in reality, you have no choice but to follow, at least initially -- your parents, your boss, the majority, the government, etc. It's this grand delusion of 'freedom' that one can uphold in a bubble, but it's almost completely gone in this world.

The vibe I'm getting here is that you feel trapped in your own motivations in life because you cannot be "truly" independent. To get by, you *have to* make consessions to other people in terms of small talk and other social relationships - or at least, that's how it appears to you. Wading through, day after day, yet no one really provides much value. At the same time, your boss is asking you to do things, or else you'll be fired. I don't know your context; I don't know if it is truly as bad as you say it is. Then again, some jobs *are* this miserable. But are you really trapped? If your job causes misery, and the people around you too, why do you stick around? Get a new job. Develop your own job. Take some drastic change in your life. To stick with the current negative, narcissistic route - everyone is stupid, they all want to hold me down, anything that prevents me from acting on a whim is a violation to freedom - is not going to get you anywhere. Take new jobs, make new choices, pursue what you are in the power to control. Extreme negativity will come out of keeping up with a bland, boring job. Of course freedom seems delusional, given that you keep choosing to go into the same miserable job, day after day. You admit to being a narcissist before, so you may very well still be working out of that mindset.

Careful not to just throw up your hands and assume other people are so terrible around you. Are there any qualities you like in those around you? Can you make something out of your job that's valuable, and up morale of your workplace? Is there anything exciting about what you do?

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I'm not complaining about my job per se. (In fact, I quite like it.) I also think that the people I work with are hard-working and honest people.

I see the issue as manifold.

It's a logical issue. I don't see what I'm doing now fitting into the big picture (even though, paradoxically, I have no clue of the big picture). In other words, my work right now doesn't integrate with the rest, not in the long-term.

It's a geographical issue. I live in (tribalist) Europe. I don't want to live here. Ideally I would live someplace where how much effort I put in would actually correspond to how much I earn, which means an objective valuation of my work (as opposed to every government job I've had so far), which can only exist in a capitalist society. And this society would have to hold to its freedom for the long-term.

It's a temporal issue. The ethical-economical-political crisis the world is in right now could not have come at a worse time. How am I to think about how to build my future when I see the world around me collapsing? Which relates to . . .

Finally, it's a psychological issue. I haven't made the issue of taking control of my life real enough to me to actually do something about it. I have begun to suspect this is because English is not my native language, distancing the issue (and the important corresponding ideas) from my mind. Which means I should either start with the painstaking work of the translation of these ideas, or drop the language altogether (which falls in line with my second point).

I'm not miserable and I really can't complain about my job. But I do know that this is not 'it', that it is far from 'it', and that if I want 'it', this is not the way to go.

But what 'it' is . . . I don't know.

So the argument follows: Well if I don't know what it is, how can I have any standard by which to make decisions? I can't. Hence I "follow".

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  • 1 year later...

Sorry to revive this topic, but I think it makes more sense then to make another topic. 

 

I am having this issue right now. What do I do when it seems that every relationship (besides one or two - but both are out of my life right now) never extend past "small talk" or "gossip"? It seems every relationship I have is not about anything meaningful to me, which is part of the reason why I am often on this forum. I don't have many friends because 1) I don't put myself out there very often. 2) The majority of the people my age have conflicting values and differing interests. 3) I hate prolonged small talk and gossip.

 

I assume the answer is to put myself out there with small talk to see if there are people that share interests/values with me, or else how would I know, right?

 

Do you guys have many face-face meaningful conversations? There was one girl that I loved talking to - but other than her, every conversation in my house becomes a screaming match / debate filled with circularity and evasions, which I find completely intolerable.

 

I think sometimes I can come across as uninterested in a relationship or thinking I am better than someone because I don't like engaging in (prolonged) small talk. But when all you have in my house/relationship between my family and I is small talk, when every conversation is about something superficial or repetitive, is it fair for me to just end the conversation and be hesitant to begin new ones? If I am invited out to dinner, should I conform to the environment - i.e. engage in small talk the whole evening? Or does it get to the point where I just keep my conversations with them limited and try to meet some new people?

 

It seems like every (real-life) relationship I have is filled with repetitive small talk, gossip, and irrationality. It is hard to bear. Any advice? Is this a maturity issue? Am I being immature? (what is immaturity?) Should I loosen up?

Edited by thenelli01
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Here's how I see it now, a year later.

 

We - and by "we" I mean people concerned with ideas - are different "beasts" than most people. We care about what we say and we scrutinize what we listen to, sometimes heavily (I'm not going to say 'too much', because I don't think there's such a thing as "overthinking".) This is different from the policies most other people employ, one common of which is "say something so you don't appear unsociable", so what you get is ... what's that word .... bromides. Most people you deal with in your everyday life don't have integrated (or largely integrated) minds, just a random, compartmentalized collection of ideas they picked up along the course of their lives. 'Random' isn't exactly the right word - sometimes a second-hander's ideas are not "picked up" at random - sometimes the principle is to uphold some emotion - but you get the point. I like the term 'hollow imitators' - it serves to bring the point home.

 

Cultivating the virtue of pride helps a lot in dealing with people you encounter in everyday life. It's important to identify when (and if) the person is 'gone' - when you can no longer reach them, when they're past the point of no return, when dealing with them is a waste of your time. And you need to have the necessary self-respect and the respect of your own time to know to cut yourself off from the conversation or even from the relationship (if there was one at all).

 

But the flipside is just as important. You need to "keep your eyes open" for people who are good, who are concerned with ideas, who do care about what's right and what's wrong, who do try to live according to what they believe in. So go out to that dinner if perchance you meet such people - don't cut yourself off from potential new relationships that might be of benefit to you, but don't go to dinner if your sole reason is to appear sociable.

 

Small talk is that "testing ground" - the place where two people start assessing each other. "Small" is a misnomer - it's actually 'big' in terms of social importance to both of the participants, because it can either lead into a stronger relationship or the opposite. For example, observe how people who take smoke breaks develop stronger relationships with each other.

 

Those are the general principles. It's your job to develop the 'social algorithm' that fits you and your values. And it doesn't happen overnight.

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It seems like every (real-life) relationship I have is filled with repetitive small talk, gossip, and irrationality. It is hard to bear. Any advice? Is this a maturity issue? Am I being immature? (what is immaturity?) Should I loosen up?

Even though there are standards of discourse, you aren't under an obligation to follow any of them. It's a myth that there's some prototype human that everyone could emulate to better make friends, get along with the general populace better, etc. People can be very different. Though there are some basic rules of communication, but how those are conveyed and practiced vary, sometimes widely, between groups of people. You could say the truly sociable person is the one who naturally recognizes all these subtle group-communication differences and can easily morph between them when in the company of different groups of people. But you don't have to (can't? nothing wrong with that) be that person.

 
As a rule, I think it's better to focus on what you like yourself, and then find people who happen to like the same things at the same time, as opposed to trying to conform to a person or persons with the hope of gaining relationships. There is forever a place for new activities and interests, but they can't really be forced and depend on the complete context of your person and group of interests at the time -- you will or won't like something at a particular point in your life. If small talk and certain groups of people don't do it for you right now, there's not much to be done about it in the short run. Put yourself in social situations you don't like right now as a way to develop that interest later maybe -- but then again maybe you'll wind up never liking that kind of human interaction.
 
The internet acts as a great medium for less (or uncommonly) sociable people. If you happen to not currently coexist in person with people you like, it is pretty easy to find people on the internet to fill that void -- and on your chosen time frame. It's nice having people in person to talk with, but the internet makes a pretty good substitute. Furthermore, there are people I like on the internet but couldn't sit through lunch with. Nothing wrong with that, either.
 
If you're forced into situations with people you don't particularly like, be cordial, but don't let them take advantage of you and leave whenever you please. Recognizing differing methods of human interaction goes both ways, and there's no reason why they should consider their preferred methods to be superior to yours, just as you recognize theirs to be good for them but not for you.
Edited by JASKN
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This is my first entry to any online forum, so I will begin by saying that small talk is only worth pursuing when it doesn't seem small to either parties. This is entirely a matter of freedom to associate. I have chosen to associate with contributors to this forum based on the self-interest that some worth-while commentary is generated among us. In the case of ppw, I empathize with his work-place situation. I don't talk football. As for those who recommend taking an interest in subjects unworthy of consideration, such as football, life-styles of the rich and famous, or favorite beers, I cannot agree with you. If you are at work, it is likely that you do not choose the "team" with which you're a member. I would never try to talk football, a subject that has nearly mystical powers over many people, because they would know I don't care about football within the first ten words out of my mouth. When someone talks about a non-work related subject, as a means of personal interaction, wouldn't it be more sensible to simply admit that you're no expert, and let the subject fade out, or allow someone else to answer. I prefer to remain silent and look like a fool, over opening up my mouth and proving that I am one. Of course, if you find someone at work that shares even a part of your Objectivist outlook, natually you have found an ally. But no one bothers the quiet guy, so long as he does his job. Always be real.

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