Against Me! lead singer comes out as transgender.

[TheEgoist]

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/headline/hayeks-vision/

Lots of discussion of gender on here. I figured I would share this. Tom Gabel of prominent punk rock band Against Me has come out as transgender and has announced he will begin the process of becoming a woman physically in the coming months.

Not many famous people have done this. I imagine it's appropriate someone in the punk rock community is the first prominent case. I imagine feeling cast out and disenfranchised by those around him was a big reason he chose to get involved in that style of music. I can't imagine the difficulty of coming out with this news, knowing that your assumed gender plays a big role in how one thinks of a band. I know on some forums, people are concerned about the direction of the band. Some people openly mock him. Hopefully his transition happens smoothly and with the support of all his loved ones and fans.

[JASKN]

I saw this yesterday, I couldn't believe the coincidence with OO's discussions. And also, my impression of him in the past had been that he sounded so "masculine" in his songs!

[JASKN]

Your link was to a Freeman article, so here's another one. Apparently Rolling Stone has a story in tomorrow's issue.

Grace is currently taking hormones and still debating whether or not she wants to undergo surgery. Whatever path she decides to take, her bravery is truly an inspiration, and we can’t wait to see this amazing woman on stage.

Only adds to my own confusion on the transgender! What are these hormones going to do to make his life better? He's married. Is he still (ever?) attracted to his wife? They do not plan on splitting up. Does he just want to call himself a girl? Where is the transgender line that would make him happy once he's crossed it?

[TheEgoist]

Stupid copy paste. This is the article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/tom-gabel-of-against-me-comes-out-as-transgender-20120508#ixzz1uL5zCNan

[Ninth Doctor]

Not many famous people have done this. I imagine it's appropriate someone in the punk rock community is the first prominent case.

There was Wendy Carlos in the 70’s. Try looking up her Playboy interview, which is how she went public, it's as in-depth as you could ask for. She’s had a very productive life, and far as I know, she’s always considered the sex change to have been the right thing for her. I wonder how many cases like hers are needed before the presumption that transgenderism is irrational and immoral is dropped here in Rand-land? I can't recall when the subject was ever discussed before that awful Peikoff podcast, and I like to think that's not actually the presumption.

[JASKN]

As opposed to "Randland," we could just call it "inquiring minds."

Obviously Peikoff's podcast was somewhat of a catalyst. So what?

[FeatherFall]

Believe it or not, Doc, some of us don't listen to Peikoff's podcasts but have otherwise managed to encounter and consider the concept of transgenderism independently.

The Drudge Report linked to two articles, one about Tom Gable and the other about Argentina, IIRC. I suspected one of these might have been the catalyst for the topic's latest revival. The Gable article lead me to listen to a few Against Me! songs. The guy's(?!) got a distinct singing style that involves 100% vocal intensity virtually all the time. It is a mixture between pure notes and screaming that actually sounds kind of good/interesting after being worked in a studio (not so much for his live stuff). It seems to me that his hormone therapy is going to seriously affect how he sings. Some youtube commenters seemed to think his singing voice is the band's greatest asset, and are worried about the change. I think his music works despite his voice.

[JASKN]

It seems to me that his hormone therapy is going to seriously affect how he sings. Some youtube commenters seemed to think his singing voice is the band's greatest asset, and are worried about the change.

I think his voice is a definite asset to the band, and I'll be sorry to see it change... however, his new voice will have the same stylings with a different quality, which could be good. It could go all Julia Child (bad), or it could go Joan Jett.

[Ninth Doctor]

As opposed to "Randland," we could just call it "inquiring minds."

I don’t use the terms “Rand-land” or “O-land” in a negative way, it’s just a shorthand. I actually think it’s pretty friendly sounding.

Obviously Peikoff's podcast was somewhat of a catalyst. So what?

It gets the conversation off on the wrong foot. Peikoff’s charge about Nazi concentration camp doctors was the most absurd hyperbole. On OL you’ll see some psychologists weigh in on his comments, and point out that the terminology he used showed that he was utterly ignorant of the subject; after his Kobe Bryant mea culpa even his most ardent supporters have to acknowledge that such things can happen, even with their idol. While on the subject, I can’t resist pointing out that OO’s resident evangelist for some supposed “objective method”, by which, ostensively, he means reflexive Peikoff sycophancy, here acknowledges, after writing many many posts on the subject across multiple threads, that he’s finally done some research on the matter!

http://forum.objecti...57

I’m afraid I can’t express my opinion on this and keep within the forum guidelines; I think this Bugs Bunny short illustrates the conundrum well.

Glancing over the Wendy Carlos interview again quite a few things jump out. She’s asked where she’d be if she hadn’t had the operation, and she says she’d be dead. She reports that she was putting a razor to her wrists on a daily basis. No, there’s too much there to summarize, here’s a link to her Wikipedia article, where there are links to the interview, one’s behind a paywall the other isn’t. Oops, I’m out of time. Forum software's a bit wiggy today.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Wendy_Carlos

[SapereAude]

Glancing over the Wendy Carlos interview again quite a few things jump out. She’s asked where she’d be if she hadn’t had the operation, and she says she’d be dead. She reports that she was putting a razor to her wrists on a daily basis.

You are actually working against your argument at this point. This illustrates why acceptance of medical procedures for gender reassignment should not be taken lightly. What you're describing here are the actions of a person who is mentally ill. Aside from gender dysphoria being a mental illness in itself, many transgendered people suffer from other considtions such as depression, bipolar, BPD and so forth. It is a chicken or the egg situation where we often do not know whether the other conditions are caused by the person's remaining in the gender they are uncomfortable with or whether the other illnesses exacerbate the person's feelings of alienation to where they feel a need to change their entire gender.

It isn't a matter of saying "transgendered people are immoral" it is a matter of saying "is it moral to perform a major surgical procedure on someone whose judgement may be impaired by mental illness?".

People obviously have the right to dispose of their bodies as they see fit. That does not mean that the ethics of performing these surgeries shouldn't be given great consideration.

[FeatherFall]

SapereAude, gender reassignment surgery is almost never taken lightly, and it certainly isn't the case that Carlos's reassignment was. You seem to be suggesting that doctors who perform gender reassignments don't vet their patients. A doctor who concluded that the patient didn't have a firm grasp of reality wouldn't do this kind of operation. Now, if you're suggesting that the dissonance is caused by the depression, please present an example of a doctor or researcher who agrees with you. That's not the prevailing wisdom regarding transsexuals. Consider this exchange:

Interviewer: What would happen if you never escaped the concentration camp?

Respondent: I'd be dead. I was putting a razor to my wrists on a daily basis.

While the person in this example is suffering from severe depression, the depression was caused by being in the concentration camp. Similarly, depression in people with gender dysphoria is caused by the dissonance between their physical bodies and their self-image. The conclusion that many gender dyshporics and their doctors come to after months or years of consultation is that correcting the self-image is impossible, but adjusting the body to conform to the image isn't.

This reminds me of a useful anecdote involving an Australian man (I tried and failed to find the relevant link). The man grew up with the intense perception that his leg was not his own. He lived with this into adulthood as doctors refused to amputate a healthy limb. One day he decided to take matters into his own hands. He submerged his lower leg in ice for several hours and went to the hospital after he was sure it was dead. Doctors tried to save his leg for a few days before cutting it off. The man claims it was the best decision of his life. I suspect that, as with the Australian man, gender dysphorics have different brain chemistry/morphology. Altering the body to reduce the dissonance is the best option until we are able to alter the mind/brain. Even then, it isn't clear that altering the brain is the best course of action.

[SapereAude]

Now, if you're suggesting that the dissonance is caused by the depression, please present an example of a doctor or researcher who agrees with you..

Please reread what I said specifically.

High comorbidity between other mental illnesses and most especially BPD (borderline personality disorder) has shown up in many studies.

(I am gay, so my wife whose degree is in clinical psych- so I am not unfamiliar or unsympathetic)

J Am Psychoanal Assoc - The theory of gender identity disorders.

Experience with more than 500 patients over the last decade has led to the conclusion that the quest for sex reassignment is a symptomatic compromise formation serving defensive and expressive functions. The symptoms are the outgrowth of developmental trauma affecting body ego and archaic sense of self and caused by peculiar symbiotic and separation-individuation phase relationships. The child exists in the pathogenic (and reparative) maternal fantasy in order to repair her body image and to demonstrate the interconvertability of the sexes. Gender identity exists not as a primary phenomenon, but in a sense as a tertiary one. There is, no doubt, a tendency to gender-differentiate in a way concordant with biological endowment. Nevertheless, gender formation is seriously compromised by earlier psychological difficulty".

In DSM-IIIR, gender identity questions were one of the bpd diagnostic criteria. Whether it is part of the illness or not is unclear, but there is a higher incidence of gender identity issues in BPD than we see in the general population" (mhsanctuary)

"There was a study approximately 10 years ago that showed 50% of transsexuals lost their desire to change sexes when treated with Tegretol. I don't have that reference any more . While I doubt all transsexuals have the BPD, the association for most is very, very strong. Individuals with gender identity problems often also have the BPD" (HellerResources if you'd care:

The Merck Manual

G De Cuypere, MD

C James, MD

Now, you will also find studies reporting the opposite- but when I've read those they tend to come from transgendered activists who I have trouble seeing as unbiased.

Please note emphasis in the above from the sources, not my own.

I don't think anyone would say the doctors take these things lightly. The disagreement is about which side of caution is erred on.

Complicating matters is the infighting within the transgendered community.

Many want gender dysphoria to be removed from DSM as a disorder.

Many want to keep it there so as to continue to get disability checks (yes, many get disability), to have extra suing rights under ADA and EEOC and in many cases to get the government to pay for their gender reassignments. Where I live, for example, city employees get sex changes on the taxpayer dime. (NOT kidding).

Edited May 11, 2012 by SapereAude

[SapereAude]

Also of note but am having trouble finding links to the studies:

Some findings that an unusual percentage of men with gender dysphoria had BPD diagnosed mothers. This indicates a strong potential for nurture factors which cannot be ignored. I'm going to have a slammed next couple of days FeatherFall, so if you have an interest in this please remind me as I may forget to try to find them when I have more time.

[Ninth Doctor]

You are actually working against your argument at this point. This illustrates why acceptance of medical procedures for gender reassignment should not be taken lightly.

FeatherFall pretty well stole my thunder as far as a reply to this. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted such an incomplete reference to the Carlos article, I had more points to add but something came up. I think you misconstrued my "argument", I would never say that sex change surgery should be taken in lightly, in fact, my understanding is that it can't be taken lightly. It's not like a tattoo you might get during a drugged out weekend.

[SapereAude]

FeatherFall pretty well stole my thunder as far as a reply to this. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted such an incomplete reference to the Carlos article, I had more points to add but something came up. I think you misconstrued my "argument", I would never say that sex change surgery should be taken in lightly, in fact, my understanding is that it can't be taken lightly. It's not like a tattoo you might get during a drugged out weekend.

I apologise, I realise I was unclear. I don't mean by the person getting it, or the doctor doing it.

I mean by people contemplating the ethical considerations of the matter from a remove.

[Dante]

http://www.thefreema...<br /><br />Lots of discussion of gender on here. I figured I would share this. Tom Gabel of prominent punk rock band Against Me has come out as transgender and has announced he will begin the process of becoming a woman physically in the coming months.

Not many famous people have done this.

Dierdre McClosky (formerly Donald McClosky) is pretty well-known in the economics world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deirdre_McCloskey

[FeatherFall]

SaperAude, I benefited from a re-reading of your post. I seem to have missed the "chicken or the egg" part, which I think is both correct and very important. Also, post #13 cleared up a misunderstanding I had about the previous post; the part you quoted from your referenced material doesn't indicate a course of action, but it is evidence that some professionals offer (at least) a partial explainaition for the disorder that presents the dissonance as either a co-symptom of other problems or as a consequence of them. As I understand it, this still doesn't rule out gender reassignment as the best treatment in some cases. The most important point I gathered was that you think there are some red flags that indicate gender reassignment could be unnecessary or harmful, and that you saw some of those flags in the Carlos case. I'd be interested if you'd elaborate, but don't feel that you have to cite any more sources on my account; I'm satisfied with knowing that there are competing theories.

[FeatherFall]

I forgot about MClosky. My only exposure to her is from the Enlightenment 2.0 conference, which can be watched at The Science Network.

Edited May 12, 2012 by FeatherFall
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