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d'Anconia

Stupid mind games people play and why

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I've been coming across various threads on forums (not completely by chance, I’ll admit) about people asking “what to do when she contacts me and says that she misses me?” which I’m not really bothered by, what I find revolting are the responses in the vein of “What I always do is –insert some cocky/asshole/joking response- but NEVER say what you really feel because that shows weakness, and don’t show excitement even if you are excited, because that supposedly takes the thrill of the “hunt” away and opens you up to much, and makes her not interested anymore”

I just find all that kind of talk very off-putting. I mean, do you really want to build a relationship with someone on foundations of dishonesty, stupid games and testing the water with cruel tricks?

So, why do you think people do this and what do you think about it?

Is it insecurity? Cynicism? Just not taking things seriously? What? I simply can’t understand how someone can stomach going through life and relationships not being honest and playing stupid mind games with people?

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Nah bro....that's how bitches is. They be liking you to lie to them.

Seriously though, I'm not sure what forums you're looking at so I can only guess as to what you're worried about, but you might want to find new ones if they're not a value to you. If you're conversing, for example with some guys who are trying to get laid indiscriminately(outside of looks) then they're mostly telling the truth, in that lying and emotional manipulation are effective. If you are interested in something more than that, then maybe you should find a different corner of the internet.

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Well I wasn't really looking for help from any of the forums I googled, I was just interested to know what people had to say about it. It's not really a corner of the internet, It's pretty much any thread you can google on the topic and it's not just about people looking for quick one-night stands. It's people giving genuine advice to people who say they're looking for a serious relationship.

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There is a sort of deceitfulness that derives from lack of character,

and dependence and emotional extortion - which is ultimately where

mind games and such come from, actually.

Mind games usually denote immaturity, low self-confidence, and essentially fear,

in my experience. A pseudo-strength, hiding weakness.

A woman doesn't have to know you inside out - and early on, why should she? -

for you still to be honest about yourself with her - within appropriate boundaries.

Genuine honesty is your own selfish virtue, not to be switched on and off for the sake

of power, pretence, or to manipulate her. A woman - a worthwhile one - will ALWAYS pick up on the difference between counterfeit and genuine strength of character, and respect it.

And if it's only bed you have in mind, it's as much reason to remain honest to yourself

and her; for many girls it's a refreshing change!

Edited by whYNOT

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A woman doesn't have to know you inside out - and early on, why should she? -

for you still to be honest about yourself with her - within appropriate boundaries.

Genuine honesty is your own selfish virtue, not to be switched on and off for the sake

of power, pretence, or to manipulate her. A woman - a worthwhile one - will ALWAYS pick

up on the difference between counterfeit and genuine strength of character, and respect it.

Well I'm not really saying people should know you inside out from the beginning, and I'm not suggesting using honesty as some kind of a manipulative tool, if that's even possible. I'm not sure if you very implying that that's what I was saying.

I'm just bothered by people who are interested in someone seriously and feel the need to play "hard to get" to show their supposed strength. I don't see anything strong about suppressing your feeling for someone and putting them, whom you supposedly value, through cruel games. It just seems extremely monstrous to me.

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Hmm - it seems you took the "you's" to mean you, personally.

Monstrous, those games are, indeed: if one is the victim, one's truthful

recourse is not returning them with interest - trying to match, and out-do, them.

Instead, to display honesty right back, and expose the games for what they are.

I think it has the effect of encouraging one's partner to drop their guard (and fears)

and moving a relationship to fresh heights - or of ending the relationship.

Mind games are petty and cruel, and if after reasonable time, he/she cannot

change, they are best kept clear of.

It may sometimes be that you are reading the person for suppressing their

emotions, charitably - while not recognizing some serious psychological

problem (like Narcissistic Personality Disorder.)

I'm not suggesting this is the case, but either way, constant pain is not love.

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Oh, I wasn't sure if you were addressing me with the you's, It seemed unlikely, but I wasn't sure.

Yes, identifying the games to the other person is probably the best thing to do; it either saves you from a person that wasn't worth your while anyway, or reassures them that they don't have to play such games if they were perchance convinced by other people that it's necessary for keeping someone’s interest. I think that a lot of the times it might be that they were misguided by the overwhelming hordes of people telling them they will lose the other person if they show their affection too honestly.

This article is an example of a “love game advocate”: http://www.sunday-guardian.com/young-restless/games-people-play-cruel-but-what-is-love-without-them

She asserts that “deep inside” we all like these games and proceeds to give horrid advice on that basis.

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Well I wasn't really looking for help from any of the forums I googled, I was just interested to know what people had to say about it. It's not really a corner of the internet, It's pretty much any thread you can google on the topic and it's not just about people looking for quick one-night stands. It's people giving genuine advice to people who say they're looking for a serious relationship.

I see. By "corner of the internet," I mean the nature of your search might be limiting you. “what to do when she contacts me and says that she misses me?” to me, immediately conjures up an image of a woman keeping a guy on the back burner for emotional support while she's pursuing another relationship(s). It could be other things, of course, but usually it's some kind of emotional manipulation like that, which probably causes most people who have experienced something similar to suggest fighting fire with fire in some respect. I'd note also that the bias is probably even stronger than that since the people likely to respond to such a question are more emotionally motivated than the average due to some previous connected experience.

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I simply can’t understand how someone can stomach going through life and relationships not being honest and playing stupid mind games with people?

Also, some "stupid games" are really just the natural push and pull that any balanced relationship(romantic or otherwise) will have. Giving other people personal information about how you feel about them or anything else really is appropriate to the extent that you have developed an equitable level of trust in both directions. Giving up too much too early gives the impression, usually appropriately, of weakness or at best a lack of social sophistication. I say usually because some people can push those boundaries harder and in such a way that the other party will want to come along for the ride, but typically that's not the case.

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Most guys who "don't know what they're doing" will err in the opposite direction, outlined by aequalsa in his last post. Telling a woman you value her, and even telling her why, before mutual value has been established through actions and conversation that doesn't consist of compliments (or "meta" comments of any kind), is the fastest way to make her disinterested as far as romance goes.

One idea is that people are aware of the human capacity to "romanticize" things, and people. A guy who overtly compliments a woman on her virtues, is statistically less likely to be a man of value who values her. He is MORE likely to be a man who is somewhat needy or desperate, and clings to the first woman he finds who displays value. Therefore he takes all her positive qualities and ignores the bad ones--or doesn't give himself time to discover them. Women know this, so when a guy starts complimenting them, they figure it's just another desperate lonely guy who "doesn't have a clue".

Let alone the fact that there are guys who think that complimenting a woman is a valid tactic for getting her to like them more. It's not expressly thought in these guys' minds, but this is in lieu of demonstrating virtue or value on his part. It's basically like saying "I have nothing to offer you, except the fact that I like you." Even an Objectivist woman would reject a man in this situation.

Of course perhaps he does have something to offer her, but usually it comes along with a kind of lonely neediness. So women are very quick to dismiss complimenters. Women of value (particularly good-looking ones) get thousands of compliments, so another point is this: complimenting a woman does nothing to set you apart from all the other guys complimenting her, even if you ARE a person of value...she'll think you're not.

[edit] I just read the article. I do think that power games of the specific kind that she mentioned in the last paragraph are pretty sick. But on the other hand, it is true what she said:

"Gentlemen, if you put it out there too fast, too soon, and too uncomplicatedly we will basically figure you for a good-for-nothing loser, with obsessive stalker tendencies and nothing else going on in your life. And will dump you quicker than you can say used tampon."

This is pretty unfortunate, but it is certainly what I've experienced.

Edited by musenji

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I like how Athol Kay puts it in his blog "Married Man Sex Life". A guy needs to balance alpha/beta male characteristics. Some guys go too far both ways, but the right balance has to be found, depending on the couple. Can be something between 60/40 to 80/20 or more, but the man has to take the lead and that doesn't include being overly emotional in the early part of a relationship. His blog helped me put words to the way I already was acting in my own marriage, and we're fantastic.

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I'm just bothered by people who are interested in someone seriously and feel the need to play "hard to get" to show their supposed strength. I don't see anything strong about suppressing your feeling for someone and putting them, whom you supposedly value, through cruel games. It just seems extremely monstrous to me.

There's nothing wrong with a little playful coquetry in a courtship. You've given no specifics, just a blanket condemnation. Personally, I think that if someone is confessing "deep", "serious" feelings for you on the third date, you should probably drop them for being too crazy to fuck. If, instead, they're talking about playing "hard to get" with someone you've been exclusive with for two years when she indicates that she'd like to set a date, yeah, that's different.

I'd actually find it quite creepy if a guy I'd been seeing for a short time returned all my phone calls/emails instantly and went on and on about how "seriously" he takes the relationship. In general, when people tell guys to play "hard to get", what they actually mean in practice is "don't be a stalker", and I've certainly seen a number of guys who need specific game-sounding instructions on how to do this.

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All good advice. To go back to honesty, there is such an 'honesty' based on

one's need - seeking second hand, emotional support - hoping for reciprocation

from another of one's own 'open-heartedness'. In no way to be confused with honesty from

self-knowledge and self-esteem, in admiration of qualities perceived - or even

in not giving a damn. To never lose "self" is the point.

Whatever the social norms around (at this time) of role-playing and withholding,

I'd say treat them judiciously. It can be so boringly conformist and predictable.

I recall N. Branden's comment in an interview quite recently, roughly: that romantic

love is becoming exceedingly shallow in these times.

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Personally, I think that if someone is confessing "deep", "serious" feelings for you on the third date, you should probably drop them for being too crazy to fuck.

I have a feeling you people have misunderstood me a little. I'm not saying one has to pour out ones soul to a person on the third date, leave flowers at their doorsteps every night and sing baladas under their window with a French accent. I think that's not needed anyway, since, if the love is mutual, it will become self-evident over time.

And I have nothing against playful "coquetry", I think it's very sweet actually since there's nothing dishonest about it. What I'm against are the games that are motive by fear of the other person losing interest in you just because you don't "keep them guessing".

I'd actually find it quite creepy if a guy I'd been seeing for a short time returned all my phone calls/emails instantly and went on and on about how "seriously" he takes the relationship.

Going on about taking a relationship seriously is a bit redundant anyway... it doesn't really need to be said I don't think.

Let alone the fact that there are guys who think that complimenting a woman is a valid tactic for getting her to like them more. It's not expressly thought in these guys' minds, but this is in lieu of demonstrating virtue or value on his part. It's basically like saying "I have nothing to offer you, except the fact that I like you." Even an Objectivist woman would reject a man in this situation.

Complimenting with the intention of getting someone to like you more is dishonest, and I'm not defending that at all. But if one has a genuine compliment to give that's not just out of the blue in the situation shouldn't be held back because you think that the other person might get to confterable with you. The part about constantly keeping the other person on the edge and purpesfully making them unsure is what I detest.

Edited by d'Anconia

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I had a friend in college, then a dyed in the wool Randian, who went head over heels nutso for a particular coed, but alas he was still a virgin. Following devastating early rejections, he immersed himself in the “game” literature, got a few practice seductions under his belt, and then turned his attentions back to the desired object. It worked, and they were together for a few years. He thinks highly of “Roissy from DC”, here’s a link:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/

Even if you object to it, there's a value to be had in studying it to help with understanding the way many people act.

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I know I just railed against people who can only quote Rand's work, but this did occur to me:

How many times did Roark compliment Dominique before they had sex? How many times did Galt or Rearden compliment Dagny before they had sex? I may be wrong, but I think the answer to all of these is zero.

Francisco did compliment Dagny once, but it was only after she asked him (why he liked her), thereby showing the first deference.

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Atlas Shrugged, chapter 4, Rearden after his courtroom speech, contemplating visiting Fransisco: "He rose to his feet, with a chuckle of amused indignation; he was acting, he thought, like a woman who waits for a telephone call and fights against the temptation to end the torture by making the first move... when he told himself that he would, he felt some dangerous element of surrender in the intensity of his own relief."

This doesn't really answer anything but I thought it was kind of funny how it sort of related.

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It's a good bring-up, CC. The kind of game-playing this woman describes in her article would not only apply to romantic relationships, but also any relationship, especially ones where power is an issue.

More on why girls tend to run from guys who compliment them: "Some insane people only need the slightest amount of communication with somebody before they assure themselves they are in love." -from reddit

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If you are confident and have stuff going on in your life, you are not going to be showing those looser tendencies that women hate. That is why confident dudes don't need to read those pick-up-artist guides. Because the people who read those things are attempting to fake that sort of behavior.

I have found it is best to be yourself. Well myself.

I mean if you suck, I could see why that would be a problem. In which case you should probably not be trying to date anyone, and should be busy filing up your life with meaningful activity.

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Even if you object to it, there's a value to be had in studying it to help with understanding the way many people act.

But I wouldn't want someone like that... It would be too bad if I liked the person and they turned out that way, but alas. If I am wrong and there is no malevolence of cowardice in it I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but I think that in a lot of cases there is at least one of the two present.

How many times did Roark compliment Dominique before they had sex? How many times did Galt or Rearden compliment Dagny before they had sex? I may be wrong, but I think the answer to all of these is zero.

It was obvious to both of them and they knew it. I'm not saying you should constantly be complimenting someone. Just that the reason for not complimenting shouldn't be fear.

How many times did Roark compliment Dominique before they had sex? How many times did Galt or Rearden compliment Dagny before they had sex? I may be wrong, but I think the answer to all of these is zero.

It was obvious to both of them and they knew it. I'm not saying you should constantly be complimenting someone; just that the reason for not complimenting shouldn't be fear.

If you are confident and have stuff going on in your life, you are not going to be showing those looser tendencies that women hate. That is why confident dudes don't need to read those pick-up-artist guides. Because the people who read those things are attempting to fake that sort of behavior.

A bit coarse, but I think I agree, at least if we agree on the meaning of "looser tendencies”. What do you think constitutes them?

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Through several threads, and the replies I've gotten to sharing certain personal experiences, I've come to realize that my experiences may be atypical. But I've generally had pleasant romantic relationships... And my experience is this: that women must be dealt with as individuals.

I've never not complimented a woman (or complimented her, for that matter) according to some strategy, or because some supposed pick-up artist thinks that women are reducible to a pattern. I've treated women in this respect the way I treat anyone or anything, and have paid compliments freely when they are warranted, and refrain from them when they are not. Honesty has been my one "strategy," and it has worked out fine in my best estimation.

Could I have had more sex over the course of my life (with certain kinds of women), had I immersed myself in strategies and such designed to seduce those kinds of women? Perhaps. Would that pursuit have made my life better? I sincerely doubt it, and doubted it at the time (which accounts in large part for why I knowingly avoided that path). I'm not sure that it would have left me as the man I am today, a man who is capable of loving and being loved by my wife in the manner that we have achieved. And that's a sad thought.

And today I am extraordinarily happy with my wife, and I'll report that I pay her compliments regularly. It's rare that I see her and am not moved to pay such a compliment, so really my usual "strategic" consideration is just not to bore her by repeating myself constantly. But if I'm looking at the most beautiful, most wonderful woman I've ever known -- and if I'm struck by that fact constantly, over years and years and years -- what am I supposed to do about it? For her part, she's reported that she loves the compliments I pay her. But then, she's not very well-versed in seduction literature, so perhaps she just doesn't yet understand her feminine self yet?

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DonAthos:

Totally that! I agree with your post completely. That's the exact compliment policy I was thinking about and I agree that love interests should not be treated as some sort of archetype that you need some sort of strategy for.

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Most guys who "don't know what they're doing" will err in the opposite direction, outlined by aequalsa in his last post. Telling a woman you value her, and even telling her why, before mutual value has been established through actions and conversation that doesn't consist of compliments (or "meta" comments of any kind), is the fastest way to make her disinterested as far as romance goes.

One idea is that people are aware of the human capacity to "romanticize" things, and people. A guy who overtly compliments a woman on her virtues, is statistically less likely to be a man of value who values her. He is MORE likely to be a man who is somewhat needy or desperate, and clings to the first woman he finds who displays value. Therefore he takes all her positive qualities and ignores the bad ones--or doesn't give himself time to discover them. Women know this, so when a guy starts complimenting them, they figure it's just another desperate lonely guy who "doesn't have a clue".

I disagree with this. If you notice something you value and want to say it, then say it. It doesn't matter if mutual value has been established or not. You could as well compliment them the first thing you do: "Hi, i'm musenji. Nice to meet you. Love that dress!", or "Love your smile. Thank you!". As a man, i'm assuming, who loves women, why not respond to the value that you see? Not because you want to take something from them and expect something in return, but only because it's a natural response to your values.

The real problem lies in what you write below:

Let alone the fact that there are guys who think that complimenting a woman is a valid tactic for getting her to like them more. It's not expressly thought in these guys' minds, but this is in lieu of demonstrating virtue or value on his part. It's basically like saying "I have nothing to offer you, except the fact that I like you." Even an Objectivist woman would reject a man in this situation.

This is the way of complimenting women expecting something in return. Essentialy wanting them to like you and secretly hoping that if you're nice to them they'll have sex with you. It's not genuine and the compliment comes with strings attached, which is why almost any woman would reject a man for that.

On the other hand, a genuine compliment with no strings attached could very well bring a smile to her face for the rest of the day. Even if she's beautiful and used to compliments.

Of course perhaps he does have something to offer her, but usually it comes along with a kind of lonely neediness. So women are very quick to dismiss complimenters. Women of value (particularly good-looking ones) get thousands of compliments, so another point is this: complimenting a woman does nothing to set you apart from all the other guys complimenting her, even if you ARE a person of value...she'll think you're not.

If you ARE a person of value that will naturally set you apart from all the other guys. It shows in more ways than wether you compliment her or not. However, compliments must be disregarded as tools or tactics to get women to like you, or a way to create attraction.

[edit] I just read the article. I do think that power games of the specific kind that she mentioned in the last paragraph are pretty sick. But on the other hand, it is true what she said:

"Gentlemen, if you put it out there too fast, too soon, and too uncomplicatedly we will basically figure you for a good-for-nothing loser, with obsessive stalker tendencies and nothing else going on in your life. And will dump you quicker than you can say used tampon."

This is pretty unfortunate, but it is certainly what I've experienced.

The problem with that is the same as with compliments. Often it comes from a weak position, where the guy is practically throwing himself at ther feet begging her to like him. But that's not really an issue of how many days to wait before you call her or being open with how you feel. A man coming from a strong position does not need to worry about that. A strong position would be: "This is me and here's what I want. Take it or leave it." However, something could also be said for maintaining tension and challenging her(after all, even if you do happen to fall quickly for her, why not really let her prove herself and work for it?).

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