How did you become a right-winger?

[Frobozz]

As a kid I was a pot-smoking hippie. I raged against The Machine and cursed The Man without really knowing any of the details. I just intuitively knew that secret conspiring warmongering capitalists were the evil that kept good people from getting ahead, even if I didn't know what capitalism meant, and I was clueless of the mysticism that filled my head.

One night, a single night amidst a blur of weeks spent following deadheads around the country, we drank beers at the steps of 710 Ashbury in San Francisco. I looked around at our group. One of us was sitting on the ground studying an index card, memorizing the details of a new stolen identity. Another asked tourists for spare change. Two others were busy agreeing about the futility of reason. Another was giggling and jittery while he explained to others how LSD never has any effect on him whatsoever. Our beers were bought with bummed money. We had no property but our clothes.

I thought we were truly living a wonderful life of permanent vacation, and how lucky we were for that to be possible. And then I had an epiphany: the only way such a thing was possible was on the backs of hard-working people like the father I had despised. I had hated him for how he always tried to oppress me with his "reality" of lies, the lies of The Man that were finally starting to sink in as truth. They were the makers, and we were the takers.

I left the group to walk and think on my own. I had always been right that there was something wrong with society, but I was realizing that maybe I had been wrong about what it was. That night, I didn't yet know the full details and implications of the differences between left and right, collectivist and individualist. But my own personal Second Renaissance had begun.

[Nicky]

Sounds like you became an individualist, not a right winger. They're really not the same thing. The political right is deeply collectivist.

[Frobozz]

The presence of RINOs in America does not change the nature of Left vs Right.

[Frobozz]

Derailed on the first reply. Good work.

[softwareNerd]

The presence of RINOs in America does not change the nature of Left vs Right.

Derailed on the first reply. Good work.

The problem is that the term "right winger" or even "Republican" (the "R" in RINO) are pretty galling to the typical Objectivist. That's not how he thinks of himself. In fact, Objectivists mostly see intellectual opposites in Republicans and in "right-wingers" just as they do in Democrats and left-wingers. So, asking an Objectivist how he became a right-winger is almost guaranteed to derail the thread into an explanation of why he is not a right-wingers.

I suppose you meant to ask what sparked people here away from conventional ideas of morality and politics and toward ideas that would lead them to the virtue of selfishness and to free-economics.

So, in that spirit: I remember three major strands in my own thinking. The first was rejecting religion very early. There was no single "aha moment" there. I simply thought the notion of God was silly: as if grown ups had simply selected one figure from the many fairy-tale books and decided to believe in that character. Arguments for God still make me feel that way: I can never take them quite seriously. The second strand I remember is the notion of the supremacy of the individual. No "aha moment" here either. I think it partly grew as an alternative to religion, and partly because its something natural to a high-schooler. The only intellectual influence I remember there are Emerson's essays "Compensation" and "Self-Reliance". (Today, I'd probably find those essays terribly mystical but at that time in my life, they provided poetic self-of-life affirmation even if they lacked logic.) Finally, despite thinking each man is an end in himself, I was still egalitarian in politics (think Andrei in We the Living). That changed when a friend handed me "The Virtue of Selfishness", a book that he thought was really weird but about which he concluded "I think you might like it".

Edited September 15, 2012 by softwareNerd

[Ninth Doctor]

The problem is that the term "right winger" or even "Republican" (the "R" in RINO) are pretty galling to the typical Objectivist.

Well I don’t know how typical The Objective Standard is, but this comes from a recent article:

As opposed to the much more useful Nolan Chart:

Of course the Nolan Chart comes out of the libertarian movement, and Real Objectivists™ can’t sanction such transparent evul*, hence the one-dimensional and ahistorical (where do the terms left and right wing come from?**) TOS thingee.

* note the date, immediately before the announcement of John Allison’s new Cato gig.

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/blog/index.php/2012/06/political-left-and-right-properly-defined/

** I can't resist adding that in the French Assembly, in the time frame when left and right wing take their names, one of the undisputed heroes of Classical Liberalism, Frédéric Bastiat, SAT ON THE LEFT!!!

Edited September 15, 2012 by Ninth Doctor

[Spiral Architect]

I become a "right-winger" if I debate an idea with a "left-winger", and vise versa. It's fairly amusing actually.

Mostly today it's a nonsensical floating abstraction people throw around to slander someone. According to the news this morning, I'm also a "right-winger" since I support Wisconsin's attempt to limit Union thug power.

[bluecherry]

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/rightists_vs_leftists.html

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/conservatives_vs_liberals.html

Here's the problem I see. The first entry, it seems at the time that right and left were not so settled on what they referred to, so Rand accepted the term "rightist" and had a view of the political spectrum much like the one from TOS. However, I'm assuming things have changed since then because these days left = liberal and right = conservative, the terms are pretty much interchangeable. It seems like a change happened with the term "right" much like what had already happened with the term "liberal" by that point, where at one time it could have well been used for people who are in favor of political freedom, but now has been taken over by people who are favoring a particular set of rights violations. Thus what once would have been legitimate to call us now is likely to be taken as an inaccurate and insulting term to use with us. Heh, can you imagine today going up to, say, Rush Limbaugh and telling him he was a leftist?

[Frobozz]

Ayn Rand and every Objectivist is a right-winger. It's the Republicans who disagreed with her, and "the religious right" (an oxymoron) conservatives who have hijacked the Republican party over the decades, who aren't really right-wingers. Or is anyone here going to call the abolitionists, who founded the Republican party, conservatives?

"I become a "right-winger" if I debate an idea with a "left-winger", and vise versa."

"these days left = liberal and right = conservative"

"can you imagine today going up to, say, Rush Limbaugh and telling him he was a leftist?"

These misuses do not change the nature of the collectivist <-> individualist continuum.

But HOLY FRACKING CHRIST. None of this is even relevant. If you hate the term right-winger so much and refuse to use it to refer to yourself, WHY would you reply to the question "How did you become a right-winger?" If you are ZOMG NOT a right-winger, how could you possibly answer that question? And where do I even say Left Right MEANS Collectivist Individualist in the original post? It's what I believe, but only your nitpicking derailments brought it to that.

What an asinine way to respond to the introduction of a newbie trying to share a personal experience.

[CptnChan]

Ayn Rand and every Objectivist is a right-winger. It's the Republicans who disagreed with her, and "the religious right" (an oxymoron) conservatives who have hijacked the Republican party over the decades, who aren't really right-wingers. Or is anyone here going to call the abolitionists, who founded the Republican party, conservatives?

"I become a "right-winger" if I debate an idea with a "left-winger", and vise versa."

"these days left = liberal and right = conservative"

"can you imagine today going up to, say, Rush Limbaugh and telling him he was a leftist?"

These misuses do not change the nature of the collectivist <-> individualist continuum.

But HOLY FRACKING CHRIST. None of this is even relevant. If you hate the term right-winger so much and refuse to use it to refer to yourself, WHY would you reply to the question "How did you become a right-winger?" If you are ZOMG NOT a right-winger, how could you possibly answer that question? And where do I even say Left Right MEANS Collectivist Individualist in the original post? It's what I believe, but only your nitpicking derailments brought it to that.

What an asinine way to respond to the introduction of a newbie trying to share a personal experience.

Dude I totally get what you're saying, but "right-winger" is notoriously equated with "Republican". Just watch anything by Arron Sorkin or Oliver Stone .

I would recommend changing the title or re-posting this with a different title, so that you can get the really really cool personal stories you're looking for, other than defensive posts.

By the way, can I emphasize once more: I totally get what you are saying here.

Edited September 16, 2012 by CptnChan

[Nicky]

The term "right wing" was first used in 19th century France, to describe royalists. In English, it was first used in the early 20th century UK, to describe British conservatives (traditionalists).

In the US, it started being used in the mid-20th century.

As far as I know, never in the history of politics or the English language has "right wing" been widely used to describe advocates of Laissez-faire Capitalism. But, Frobozz, if you know otherwise, you're welcome to prove it.

Until you do, I suggest you look up the meanings of words you use, and use them accordingly. Or if you can't be bothered, at least learn from being corrected.

[Spiral Architect]

Ayn Rand and every Objectivist is a right-winger. It's the Republicans who disagreed with her, and "the religious right" (an oxymoron) conservatives who have hijacked the Republican party over the decades, who aren't really right-wingers. Or is anyone here going to call the abolitionists, who founded the Republican party, conservatives?

"I become a "right-winger" if I debate an idea with a "left-winger", and vise versa."

"these days left = liberal and right = conservative"

"can you imagine today going up to, say, Rush Limbaugh and telling him he was a leftist?"

These misuses do not change the nature of the collectivist <-> individualist continuum.

But HOLY FRACKING CHRIST. None of this is even relevant. If you hate the term right-winger so much and refuse to use it to refer to yourself, WHY would you reply to the question "How did you become a right-winger?" If you are ZOMG NOT a right-winger, how could you possibly answer that question? And where do I even say Left Right MEANS Collectivist Individualist in the original post? It's what I believe, but only your nitpicking derailments brought it to that.

What an asinine way to respond to the introduction of a newbie trying to share a personal experience.

That is the point of people's responses - The term is misused and in many ways unusable since it is a package deal used to smear people.

If you want to talk about the origins or how you think it is/should be used then that sounds like a good conversation. You didn't lead into that however so you got people's preceptions instead, which is natural.

[Ninth Doctor]

Ayn Rand and every Objectivist is a right-winger.

[...]

If you hate the term right-winger so much and refuse to use it to refer to yourself, WHY would you reply to the question "How did you become a right-winger?"

[...]

What an asinine way to respond to the introduction of a newbie trying to share a personal experience.

You post on an Objectivist site, equating “right-winger” with Objectivism, and now you’re upset that people are correcting you? What a n00b.

Here’s an intelligent discussion of the issue:

[Ninth Doctor]

That is the point of people's responses - The term is misused and in many ways unusable since it is a package deal used to smear people.

This calls to mind news reports from the early 90’s, I have no idea how to look up an example but maybe you remember it too. There was a move afoot in Russia to go back to Communism, and the people behind it were labeled, in US media, “right-wingers”. Even “far right-wing”. Gaaa!!!!

[thenelli01]

But HOLY FRACKING CHRIST. None of this is even relevant. If you hate the term right-winger so much and refuse to use it to refer to yourself, WHY would you reply to the question "How did you become a right-winger?" If you are ZOMG NOT a right-winger, how could you possibly answer that question? And where do I even say Left Right MEANS Collectivist Individualist in the original post? It's what I believe, but only your nitpicking derailments brought it to that.

What an asinine way to respond to the introduction of a newbie trying to share a personal experience.

Imagine saying "How did you become a Nazi?" and then in the post go on to explain how you believe Nazi really means individualist. It's impossible to answer your question without addressing your terminology first.

But to answer the question - My philosophy class at Bentley University sparked my interest in philosophy. I never heard of Ayn Rand, actually I stumbled upon her randomly. I wanted to read some philosophy books, I picked out The Virtue of Selfishness. It made sense to me - it reaffirmed my views and gave me a better understanding of what individualism actually means.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Matt Giannelli