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volco

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Margarett Ann Shriver

She changed her name to Lionel when she was a teenager but she's clearly heterosexual.

It's funny that her last name which she didn't change, sounds like writer in German, and she's a succesful writer.

Born to a Christian Democrat family from North Carolina she renounced her faith, country and name and became not only an expat, but an archetypical expat.

I got to know her after watching 'We need to talk about Kevin' mainly because I have a crush on the leading role, Tilda Swinton (Orlando, Julia, The Deep End, I am Love)

The film disturbed me but left me itching... so I read the novel. I have to say that it is pretty rare that a novel and a film complement each other soooooo well. The film adaptation was done by Lynnie Ramsey whom I deeply from my gut, dislike.

The story is about a succesful woman who barely approaching the ticking clock choses to have a child. It is a very conscious, premeditated decision. After birth, she doesn't connect with her child, and the rest of the novel (besides the very funny and thrilling spoilers) deals about the surrogatory role of a mother, and the altruism it entails. The protagonist can't tolerate that, but she feels somewhat guilty for it.

Parenthood repays a debt. But who wants to pay a debt she can escape? Apparently, the childless get away with something sneaky. Besides, what good is repaying a debt to the wrong party? Only the most warped mother would feel rewarded for her trouble by the fact that at last her daughter's life is hideous, too
excerpt

I am doing Lionel Shriver a dis-service by describing this novel so poorly, but I am convinced this good material for Objectivists as we are able to see inside the mind of an altruist who is genuinely and honestly conflicted by the reality of individual life.

This theme is explored in other novels of her, particularly 'GAME CONTROL', a very good and fun novel about Demography, Population Control, and Africa.

I want and need to share this author with Objectivists because her instinctive audience is very far from it as she's somewhat of a Liberal Icon. However she's a transgressor within her circle, and I think we could 'help her', although that's not the point. The point is sharing this astounding author who is cruelly honest in her self doubt and her doubt about Liberal or Left politics and ethics in general. Priceless.

Edited by volco
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Someone experiencing doubt about themselves and their liberal views is about as far from priceless as it gets. It also seems as though the book, or you, is implying that parenthood entails altruism. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, the excerpt you chose seems to be calling all human life hideous.

Edited by oso
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Read about this on wiki and it sounds interesting. Especially the ending,

where Kevin says he doesn't quite know why he did it. Somewhat related is an autobiography by Leopold, the guy from the Leopold and Loeb murder, called Life Plus 99 Years. I remember reading that when I was really young and it's freaked me out ever since. "My motive, so far as I can be said to have had one, was to please Dick. Just that--incredible as it sounds. I thought so much of the guy that I was willing to do anything--even commit murder--if he wanted it bad enough." Can you imagine that, killing another person just to appease your friend?

The most interesting part to me, about these types of books, is the parents. They support their kids through everything, even premeditated murders. They always end up saying, 'He's my son and I still love him.' (In this book the mother says the same thing, even though her son kills her entire family!) I think this is the best case against unconditional love I've ever seen. You know there's something wrong when a kid can murder almost every member in his family, and his mom still loves him. I just don't get it.

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I thought you were going to abstain from spoilers! but now that it's out...

Read about this on wiki and it sounds interesting. Especially the ending,

where Kevin says he doesn't quite know why he did it. Somewhat related is an autobiography by Leopold, the guy from the Leopold and Loeb murder, called Life Plus 99 Years. I remember reading that when I was really young and it's freaked me out ever since. "My motive, so far as I can be said to have had one, was to please Dick. Just that--incredible as it sounds. I thought so much of the guy that I was willing to do anything--even commit murder--if he wanted it bad enough." Can you imagine that, killing another person just to appease your friend?

Indeed, or its analogue opposite. Kevin kills to enrange/punish his mother for having invited him /forced him into living. (yes I know how it sounds, it sounds taboo, that's why the theme is valuable). And secondly, he's a Nihilist, he choses his victims according to just one criterium> his victims loved life or at least had clear goals.

The most interesting part to me, about these types of books, is the parents. They support their kids through everything, even premeditated murders. They always end up saying, 'He's my son and I still love him.' (In this book the mother says the same thing, even though her son kills her entire family!) I think this is the best case against unconditional love I've ever seen. You know there's something wrong when a kid can murder almost every member in his family, and his mom still loves him. I just don't get it.

Is it unconditional love? or dependance and sense of responsability? We don't know. The mother feels ambiguosly guilty. As a matter of fact she can't either dismiss herself of responsability, nor convince herself that it's actually not her fault. So she's trapped.

The novel and story in itself is very interesting and gives room for a lot of debate, and I encourage that.

However I'm talking about Lionel Shriver in general. I see this conflict between her 'Liberal' 'Christian' Altruist upbringing and a very late semi awakening to the fact that maybe egoism is not a synonim for evil = in fact that it can be the opposite.

In 'Game Control', the novel about Demography and Pop Control, the main female character wants to help Kenyans (and Humanity) through Planned Parenthood until she realizes that she's doing more harm than good, and switches to the other extreme before realizing in a depressing episode of defeat, that neither 'plan' would work. One for being impractical, the other for being immoral. And both plans are both impractical and immoral interchangeably.

I believe I consider L. Shriver so interesting for Objectivists because she (belatedely) arrives to some of the same conclusions, but probably having never read Ayn Rand or any other similar author.

I strongly recommend her novels, but I'll try to continue debating her in this thread.

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Someone experiencing doubt about themselves and their liberal views is about as far from priceless as it gets. It also seems as though the book, or you, is implying that parenthood entails altruism. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, the excerpt you chose seems to be calling all human life hideous.

not me Bear! Lionel is calling SOME life hideous, but in the excerpt I quoted she's calling the instinctive obligation of motherhood hideous. After having this first very planned child out of a mid life crisis, she does have another child later in a more sneaky and 'natural' intellectually and morally honest manner (she actually desires another child this time instead of planning it as a life must-do)

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