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Starting a Project - An Objectivist Bedtime Story

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Richard Novak

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What you call "someone else's ideas," I'm saying are not someone else's ideas.

If you have ideas that are the same as Ayn Rand's, or anyone else's, then they are your ideas. And it doesn't matter if you got those ideas from reading The Fountainhead or whatever. Once you believe them -- once they're your ideas -- then they're yours.

Reread the initial post on this thread. In it, Richard is focused not on his ideas which have been influenced by Rand and others, but specifically on promoting Rand's. He says that he wants to present her complex system of Objectivist ethics and morality in a way that children can understand.

Honestly, I think Rand would be aghast at such an admission of lack of artistic independence. I think she'd say something like, "Please leave my creations alone. Find your own ideas and your own voice."

Roark did not invent windows, doors, ceilings, buttresses, etc. None of those elements are "original" to him. And if someone writes a new fiction expressing established Objectivist themes, it will be much the same.

That's an apples to oranges comparison. Roark's using walls doors and windows in his architecture is not like someone announcing that he is going to write a book promoting someone else's philosophy and mimicking her Romantic Realist thematic content. An architect using walls, doors and windows is the equivalent of a writer using letters, words and sentences, not someone else's message, theme and structure. So the point is not that a writer must be original to the point of creating his own alphabet and language, but that he distinguish himself artistically from all others, not mimic his favorites or carry their water.

J

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Eiuol and Jonathan, I'm wondering why you question my "respect for the craft" and then point me at video games?

I did not point you to video games. Eiuol did, but he and I are two different people. The arguments that he presents are his, not mine.

My point is, you're taking this all out of order. You suspect I want to re-create Rand's work specifically for children.

I don't "suspect" it. I merely read what you wrote. In this thread's initial post, you stated that you were going to try to present the complex system of Objectivist ethics and morality in a way that children can understand. Objectivism is Rand's work. Therefore you were saying that you wanted to re-create Rand's work specifically for children.

What you don't understand is that I'm not Keating going to see Cameron; I'm Roark going to see Cameron. I want to create things based on my own beliefs, but it's Rand whose writing helped me understand the details I had trouble naming in my own belief system.

Okay, but that's not what your initial post said. It said that your purpose was to spread Objectivism rather than your own unique vision. But thanks for clearing that up.

In other words, I'm writing for my own beliefs, many of which fall into line with strict Objectivism.

You say that "many" of your beliefs fall in line with strict Objectivism. That would imply that some of your views don't. Which of your beliefs do not fall in line with strict Objectivism? Will they be presented in your art? Are your deviations from strict Objectivism an improvement on the philosophy? If so, I think that that would be very interesting to see expressed in a work of art.

J

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Nor is Jonathon's unfounded accusation, "you're not an artist so you wouldn't understand," which is a total BS statement.

I did NOT say that. Please don't make up quotes and attribute them to me. Doing so is dishonest, and dishonesty is not virtuous.

Would you also call Terry Goodkind unoriginal because he's an Objectivist scifi writer? (Also, if you've seen any other Objectivist-type children's books before, please share.)

I've never read Goodkind's work, but I've heard quite a lot of criticism that his work is a poor imitation of Rand's, and that many Objectivists appear to judge his work based solely on its message or ethical content, which they confuse with aesthetic merit (which the critics say Goodkind's work is quite lacking in).

I've seen several paintings which are derivative of Rand's work that I think are bad art. They make me cringe. There's something very unsettling about artists who claim to admire individualism painting their interpretations of Rand's creations.

J

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Jonathan,

I'll try this once more but then I need to move on. I am trying to write a children's book that embodies Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. That's because I am a believer in Objectivism, almost completely. My belief system is so close to Objectivism that it would be more of a slap in the face to Ayn Rand and real Objectivists to pretend otherwise, than to cite the philosophy as my influence.

You assume Ayn Rand would disapprove of someone trying to spread the fundamental principles of her belief system, even if that person (me) believed in the same fundamental principles. How ironic that she would supposedly disapprove of the spreading of individualist values through writing, though that's exactly what she did through her novels. Please tell me more about your close personal relationship with Ayn Rand, as I would love to pick her brain using you as an intellectual proxy.

Think about it Jonathan. The only true Objectivist was Ayn Rand. Even Leonard Peikoff allegedly disagreed with some of her ideas (I say allegedly because I don't have your personal relationship with either of them). Thus, anyone who subscribes to Objectivism the way I do, and the way many people here probably do, are intrinsically living their own version of Objectivism. If I, or anyone else, try to put these beliefs on paper or in music or in the paintings you cringe at, we're using our own values, in line with as much of Objectivism we understand and agree with, coupled with our talents. That's it. That's all there is. My writing of a children's book from an Objectivism standpoint is not me trying to copy Ayn Rand. It's me using my talent and a belief system Ayn Rand helped me realize to spread a message I believe is right.

To answer your question, there are two reasons I say "almost." First, I don't agree with Ayn Rand's personal views of homosexuality. I'm not sure what the "official" Objectivist view of homosexuality is, but I don't find it immoral any more than I find heterosexuality moral. In my opinion, anything that happens between consenting adults without victimizing anyone is not open to moral judgment, unlike someone slipping drugs to a second person in their drink and then taking advantage of them when they're passed out.

The second reason I say "almost" is because I don't know 100% about Objectivism. I cannot say I agree with the philosophy 100% because I don't know that percentage about it.

Name the alternative. If I agree/understand, say, 95% of Objectivism, and the 5% may be something like homosexuality or something I'm not aware of (so maybe I agree or disagree, but how do I know without knowing?), then my alternatives are threefold: first, I can write about something I believe, and give credit to Ayn Rand for naming this thought process; second, I can write about the stuff I disagree with for the sake of pure originality, but a children's book about the morality of homosexuality just for the sake of appeasing your idea may not go over so well; or third, I can write about something I don't believe in - pure sarcasm on paper - and become the Banner.

Did Ayn Rand ever, to your knowledge, write a children's book? If not, then what I'm doing is as original as I can make it. If she did, please show me because I'd love to read it. I say this because nothing I've read so far (and that doesn't include her whole collected works) outlines an Objectivist's view toward children. I'm blazing new territory for the sake of my story. You'll notice none of her characters in any of her mainstream fiction ever had children - no little Roarks, Taggerts, or Galts running around, spawned by the main characters. In Atlas Shrugged, we see some of the characters as children, but in those cases they're somehow magically Objectivists already with no real explanation of how they got that way. As far as I know, Ayn Rand never had children. I'm not sure an Objectivist children's book could be any more original than it is by its very existence.

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I'll try this once more but then I need to move on. I am trying to write a children's book that embodies Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. That's because I am a believer in Objectivism, almost completely. My belief system is so close to Objectivism that it would be more of a slap in the face to Ayn Rand and real Objectivists to pretend otherwise, than to cite the philosophy as my influence.

You assume Ayn Rand would disapprove of someone trying to spread the fundamental principles of her belief system, even if that person (me) believed in the same fundamental principles.

No, I don't assume that. My point has not been that Rand would disapprove of anyone trying to spread the fundamental principles of her belief system, but that she would not want others using their art to do so. She saw art as a deeply personal and individual expression of one's soul. She would not like people mimicking her and trying to borrow her ideas and sense of life in a work of art. She'd expect an artist to express who he is, and she would not take kindly to anyone's belief that he shared her views and had a similar soul.

As I've suggested in previous posts, I think Roark represents Rand's view of artistic creation, and he is not the type of character who would take on the task of embodying someone else's philosophy in his art, or of stooping to using his art to "spread" someone else's ideas.

How ironic that she would supposedly disapprove of the spreading of individualist values through writing, though that's exactly what she did through her novels.

The purpose of Rand's art was not to "spread" her values. She did not have such a utilitarian view of art. She saw didacticism in art as polluting the art. She thought that art's purpose "is not to educate, to reform or to advocate anything."

But, anyway, it's not an example of irony that Rand expressed her values in her art and that I think that she would have disliked the idea of you spreading her ideas through your art.

Please tell me more about your close personal relationship with Ayn Rand, as I would love to pick her brain using you as an intellectual proxy.

My, how snippy! I didn't have a personal relationship with Rand. I have, however, read her views on the subject of art. Have you?

Btw, have you written anything in the past? How long have you been a writer?

J

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Jonathan,

My point is so simple but I don't think you're grasping it. I held my own beliefs before ever hearing of Ayn Rand. Actually, I'd heard of Atlas Shrugged but knew nothing about it. My writing represents my views, and my views are almost entirely in line with Ayn Rand's philosophy. When I say my writing pushes the views of Ayn Rand, I'm giving her credit for coming first, for being the first person to really define that thought process. What I don't think you understand is this: because I had my beliefs before knowing Ayn Rand's work, I could easily say "I want to write a bedtime story for children expressing my own ideas" and it literally woldn't change one word in the writing. Not one. But anyone who's read any of Rand's work would look at what I'm doing and say, "Wow, that sounds like Objectivism to me." Now that I've read her, and now that her work has helped me sharpen my own beliefs, I have no problem giving her credit as my inspiration, giving her philosophy the recognition it deserves. I've said before, I'm not trying to mimic her work, but I'd like to live up to it.

And you and I are coming from different viewpoints on art. Exactly whose viewpoint am I supposed to express through my own art, if not the Objectivist viewpoint I hold as my own and share with Mrs. Rand? Or is nobody allowed to use art to express themselves since she's already done so?

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Jonathan,

My point is so simple but I don't think you're grasping it. I held my own beliefs before ever hearing of Ayn Rand. Actually, I'd heard of Atlas Shrugged but knew nothing about it. My writing represents my views, and my views are almost entirely in line with Ayn Rand's philosophy. When I say my writing pushes the views of Ayn Rand, I'm giving her credit for coming first, for being the first person to really define that thought process. What I don't think you understand is this: because I had my beliefs before knowing Ayn Rand's work, I could easily say "I want to write a bedtime story for children expressing my own ideas" and it literally woldn't change one word in the writing. Not one. But anyone who's read any of Rand's work would look at what I'm doing and say, "Wow, that sounds like Objectivism to me." Now that I've read her, and now that her work has helped me sharpen my own beliefs, I have no problem giving her credit as my inspiration, giving her philosophy the recognition it deserves. I've said before, I'm not trying to mimic her work, but I'd like to live up to it.

And you and I are coming from different viewpoints on art. Exactly whose viewpoint am I supposed to express through my own art, if not the Objectivist viewpoint I hold as my own and share with Mrs. Rand? Or is nobody allowed to use art to express themselves since she's already done so?

Not that I'm speaking to your situation Richard, but I just want to add for myself that even if you didn't hold "Objectivist beliefs," per se, prior to reading Rand, it wouldn't change my evaluation that these beliefs are yours now, and that it is completely reasonable for your art to follow suit.

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DonAthos, you absolutely hit it head on. My ideas are close enough to Objectivism that I call them Objectivist. But if Rand never existed, or never wrote the works she produced, I'd still have most of these same beliefs, and would incorporate them into my writing in much the same way. But it wouldn't be exactly the same. As I said, she helped me hone my ideas, sharpen some thoughts and clarify some points. She was like the finisher of a concrete pour. The foundation was there, but now it's closer to presentable.

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My point is so simple but I don't think you're grasping it. I held my own beliefs before ever hearing of Ayn Rand. Actually, I'd heard of Atlas Shrugged but knew nothing about it. My writing represents my views, and my views are almost entirely in line with Ayn Rand's philosophy. When I say my writing pushes the views of Ayn Rand, I'm giving her credit for coming first, for being the first person to really define that thought process.

Perhaps a better way to communicate what you're apparently trying to say would be, "I am going to write this book to express my view of what is important in existence. I intend to create an imaginary world with exciting events and contrasting characters which embody my passionately held moral views. I've been influenced by many writers, most notably Stephen King, for his style, and Ayn Rand for the depth of her philosophical content. I owe a great debt of gratitude especially to Rand for all that I've learned from her."

See, there's quite a difference between citing someone as an influence and stating that you're going to embody that person's philosophy in a work of art, and that you're going to do so for the purpose of helping to spread her belief system.

J

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