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How does one go about identifying desires through a process of reason?

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Hi, I've been lurking on these forums for a past few weeks while reading "The Virtue of Selfishness" slowly and trying to process the information presented and how it fits with my current views. I am new to Objectivism, "The Virtue of Selfishness" being my first text on the subject. The only other book I've read by Ayn Rand is "Anthem" (several years ago as required high school reading).

 

First the passages from "The 'Conflicts' of Mens Interests" that made me think of this question:

A man's "interests" depend on the kind of goals he chooses to pursue, his choice of goals depends on his desires, his desires depend on his values—and, for a rational man, his values depend on the judgement of his mind.
Desires (or feelings or emotions or whims) are not tools of cognition; they are not a valid standard of value, nor a valid criterion of man's interests.

[A man] chooses and/or identifies his desires by a process of reason, and he does not act to achieve a deseire until and unless he is able rationally to validate it in the full context of his knowledge and of his other values and goals.

 

What I'm comfused about is:

  1. how does one go about identifying desires through a process of reason?
  2. how does one find the "rational" reason to continue doing an activity that makes you feel happy/fulfilled if you cannot use emotion as a valid basis for your interests/values?
  3. If you cannot put a reason for doing an activity into words, does this make continueing the activity "irrational?"

1) If desires are NOT tools of cognition, how can goals be dependent on desires? What is the point of identifying desires with reason if desires depend on a man's values but at the same time are NOT a valid standard of value? I'm confused about how one finds whatever it is they desire through reason. What type of thought process is this?

 

2/3) To use myself as am example: I like to draw and I draw a lot. Drawing has been the one constant in my 20 years of life. I want to get a BFA and do illustration professionally and full time (this August marks 1 year as a part-time freelance illustrator for me so I do have a glimpse of what I am trying to get into). But I am struggling to put to words WHY I want to be a professional illustrator. Many reasons I come up with start with "Because I want to..." and I feel like that thought process is extremely flawed if I'm trying to figure out if it's rational for me to pursue this goal. I've tried putting my reasons in a "Because I value..." form but how do I know when a reason is rational? It's difficult because my personal bias and enjoyment of the activity makes me WANT to believe it is a good and rational goal, but I am afraid that I can prove this goal irrational through reasoning since I can't seem to put a "good enough" validation/justification into words. Can changing my reasons for my actions allow me to rationally pursue this activity or would doing that not-rational in some way?

 

 

I simply want to live being honest with myself, with others, and with no more self-sacrifice (something I thought was good and normal, and regularly practiced it, before reading "The Virtue of Selfishness.") I look forward to your perspectives.

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Hello. :3

 

To your first question, I'm not sure, but it looks like maybe you got the wording of some things tangled up? What the quote says needs to be identified by a process of reason is "interests", not "desires." "Interests" in this case doesn't refer to "things which one is interested in," it is referring to "things which are in one's best interest." Desires are feelings, feelings depend upon what one believes. Feelings don't tell you what is correct, they just tell you what you already believe is correct. What one believes may or may not actually be correct. If somebody came to believe something for irrational reasons then that person will end up considering things to be in their best interest which are in fact not in their best interest. This incorrect assessment of what is in one's best interest leads to desiring things which are not in one's best interest due to that person being under a false impression that said things are in that person's best interest. So, desires are only going to be as much in line with what is actually in somebody's best interest as that person's beliefs line up with what is correct about what is actually in one's best interest. For that, getting one's beliefs to be correct about what is in one's best interest, one needs to utilize reason.

 

"How does one find the 'rational' reason to continue doing an activity that makes you feel happy/fulfilled if you cannot use emotion as a valid basis for your interests/values?"

You need to find the answer, rationally of course, to the question of if (and in what situations) that activity is something which will help you or hurt you. If it helps you, great! Go on, keep it up as long as it is so! If it hurts you, quit it and do something else which helps you instead. Determining correctly what helps you and what hurts you through reason can be complicated sometimes. Many things are helpful for any human's life and/or helpful at any time, but others vary from person to person and from situation to situation. There's a lot already written about how to determine correctly what, exactly, is one's best interest in more of Rand's writings and elsewhere on this forum. :)

 

"If you cannot put a reason for doing an activity into words, does this make continueing the activity 'irrational?'"

Not necessarily. Usually, yeah, but there are some things where it is pretty normal to have difficulty putting one's thoughts into words. These things it is typical to have some difficulty with putting into words generally relate to one's "sense of life." Sense of life and things related to it are notoriously difficult to come up with the right words to fully express. Partial expressions of it in words usually can be done with some effort, but they typically are inadequate to convey the whole of one's sense of life. Things where sense of life is highly relevant include the art one finds appealing, one's "central purpose in life" (which usually relates directly to what career one seeks to pursue), and romance. In these cases though it is generally a matter of why one prefers one thing which could be beneficial to a person versus another thing which could also be beneficial to a person as opposed to things which are beneficial for a person versus things which are not. This means things like why somebody may want to be a teacher rather than a plumber even though both are legitimate career options.

 

So, yeah, the short version is that pursuing a career in art like you are doing is a-okay. :thumbsup:

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Hi bluecherry. Thank you for your reply : )

 

I guess I was confused about the wording. At first I thought she meant that one should be able to say, "this is my value/reason, therefore this is what I want." Your comments in addition to talking to over with someone else made me think that what Rand is really saying is more like, "I want this, and using my reasoning I can see that I want it for a rational reason." I think the important distinction I didn't make at first was as you said: "what one's interested in" vs "one's rational self-interest." I will try to make this distinction as I continue to read her essays.

 

Thank you for the links, especially the one for "sense of life." I think I ran into the term briefly before but it was very helpful to read more about it. I will make a point to looking into The Romantic Manifesto after I finish The Virtue of Selfishness as it seems highly relevant to my interests. Thank you again for your response! I am understanding this topic much clearer now.

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_howl, Welcome to the Forum.

 

(I'll try not to repeat points Bluecherry has made above.)

how does one go about identifying desires through a process of reason?



Even though emotions, feelings and desires are not tools of cognition, they usually act as starting points. I think it would be impossible to think one's way to a desire (except when driven by some existing desire). Far better is to try different things as one grows into adulthood, and hope that one will take your fancy.

Rather than identifying desires through a process of reason, one should validate them. It is fine to "do what you love" as long as one is also adding injunctions like: "... as long as it does not harm you... and is consistent with other things you want to do over your life".

 

Philosophically, a career choice would tie into productiveness/purpose. So, choosing to join the mafia is probably ruled out. There's a value to most work, but it might take one a while to articulate the precise value.

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