LoBagola Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 Apart from the universe as a whole (everything that is), is there anything else that is eternal such that "cause" is inapplicable to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Apart from the universe as a whole (everything that is), is there anything else that is eternal such that "cause" is inapplicable to it? Physical laws (although these may actually have causes dating back to the big bang), matter and energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadmjones Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Do you mean inapplicable to speaking of some abstractions in certain contexts, or like 'cause' being a kind of stuff or motive power? When you say the Universe is causeless, you mean that all of existence taken as a whole (the broadest abstraction) is without a single cause, yes? Cause is an abstraction that describes an entity(ies)'s identity and also the actions possible to that identity, it is not a power or thing that has identity other than an abstraction. Or at least this is the way I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleph_1 Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Cause is an abstraction that describes an entity(ies)'s identity and also the actions possible to that identity, it is not a power or thing that has identity other than an abstraction. Or at least this is the way I understand it. This ia a good observation. We don't apply "cause" to certain abstractions because they are abstractions more than entities. To do otherwise would be to use a stolen concept. The universe is treated as an entity in the general theory of relativity, but at the same time it treats the universe differently than matter or energy. In this way, perhaps "cause" applies to gravitational sources in this theory but not to spacetime or perhaps even to gravity itself. Gravity, after all, does not exist in isolation but only in relation to matter and energy. What is more, time does not apply to the universe as a whole but is rather a property of the universe. Cause and effect takeplace in space and time and hence applies only to objects within that paradigm and not to the universe. It does not make sense to ask for the "cause" of the universe, consequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Physical laws (although these may actually have causes dating back to the big bang), matter and energy. Physical laws are not existents except as thoughts, where they act as guidelines for other thoughts about physics. Physical laws are caused by the people who discover and prove them. Reifying physical laws is a fallacy. The underlying properties of matter and energy, about which the physical laws are created to describe, have causes down to a certain point at which the quest for explanation must stop. The quest stops because ultimately Mill's Methods (investigatory methods of Agreement and Difference) will have no raw data to work on as inputs, as whatever the ultimate constituent of mass/energy is there is no other ultimate constituent to compare or contrast it with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 How about the properties of "things"? The plastic polypropylene does not "cause" its chemical arrangement any more than ice causes its crystal lattice, or a flame causes its shape, or a triangle causes its number of angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream_weaver Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Chemical arrangements, crystal lattices, shapes and quantity of angles are not actions. Causal relationships are the actions of entities, not the properties thereof. The fact that water forms itself into a crystal lattice when the temperature dips below a specified degree, the act of forming is the causal or active part of the process. The crystal lattice is the result. Water is the entity. Causality is the law of identity applied to action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Thank you, Grames. Good point. Tangential: Is volition the base of causality? Ie. The grasp of choices as alterations to entities or conditions, extended temporally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Chemical arrangements, crystal lattices, shapes and quantity of angles are not actions. Causal relationships are the actions of entities, not the properties thereof. The fact that water forms itself into a crystal lattice when the temperature dips below a specified degree, the act of forming is the causal or active part of the process. The crystal lattice is the result. Water is the entity. Causality is the law of identity applied to action. Indeed. A material *is* its chemical arrangements. A triangle *is* a closed geometric figure with three angles. A thing is its properties. Existence *is* identity. A thing does not "cause" its identity. mdegges 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonid Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Eternal doesn't mean very old, it means time without identity. There is no such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absols Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 (edited) Apart from the universe as a whole (everything that is), is there anything else that is eternal such that "cause" is inapplicable to it? yes freedom and infinity, these are entities that dont have a cause while they exist freedom is always since zero is possible for anything infinity is always since a plus so superiority is possible for everything so for relative facts freedom is the fact and for absolute facts infinity is the fact which prove that truth is what exist as truth must exist, certainty seem to b existing in concept always before anything else, which in a way justify everything existence before it exists, but also invented lies of willing means, which in return justify truth conception as the exclusive existing thing what is the cause of infinite freedom?? perfection, so only what is hundredpercent its fact own facts source exist of what also infinite freedom exist really, so true existence is not a mean but what all facts mean what is true is infinity, so the most superior absolute fact objectively being so infinity freedom is the way for infinity to stay in truth perfection concept then truth freedom is also the way of truth to stay objectively perfect then what matter principally is freedom as the reason of perfect superiority, so freedom is the right fact to exist which makes sense how many people do you know that would do something for nothing or that wont care about what they are for nothing too ? none bc it is really an ultimate value absolutely how could you picture any existence, so positive constancy, when any is something will, it is a vicious trap that would always mean nothing negatively, as do not exist till it really stop being in dramatic ways any would become something else as a fact by its own will, so everything would become a concept of lies Edited October 20, 2013 by absols Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Yes, children; that's what we call acid. ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Descartes once wrote that God must exist because we continue to exist, through each successive moment, despite the fact that no instant is determined by the one before it and, consequently, any of us could cease to exist at any instant (for no reason whatsoever). Which explains punctuation since period. Edited October 21, 2013 by Harrison Danneskjold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdegges Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Apart from the universe as a whole (everything that is), is there anything else that is eternal such that "cause" is inapplicable to it? "The motivation for believing in an eternal universe was the desire to avoid invoking divine intervention to create the universe and set it going. Conversely, those who believed the universe had a beginning, used it as an argument for the existence of God as the first cause, or prime mover, of the universe... The General Theory of Relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe shattered the old picture of an ever existing and ever lasting universe. Instead, general relativity predicted that the universe, and time itself, would begin in the big bang" (Hawking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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