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probeson

Is Israel an apartheid state? Why Zionism = Apartheid

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SoftwareNerd.

 

Actually..I'm only speaking of Israeli-Palestinians. 

 

Take the amendment to the Basic Law:

 

"Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including ..the right to freedom of movement"

First Israeli Arabs are prevented from visiting family members that live in countries that Israel does not approve. This law does not apply equally to all citizens.

 

Proof:

http://www.haaretz.c...ges/997986.html

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First Israeli Arabs are prevented from visiting family members that live in countries that Israel does not approve. This law does not apply equally to all citizens.

How is that discrimination? It applies to all Israeli citizens. You can be an Arab, Jew or Atheist. Doesn't matter. If you travel to enemy countries, you don't get to run for office. 

 

The US bars travel to several enemy countries it has sanctions against (including Cuba) too. And that's a little stronger than just preventing people who do it from running for office. You can go to jail for violating the embargo against Cuba. Why aren't you making long winded threads about the apartheid state of Miami, Florida?

 

As for the "countries Israel disapproves of" statement, that's just infuriating dishonesty. You know full well that Israel has peace agreements and diplomatic contact with every Muslim country willing to sit down and agree to them. It's not Israel's choice to be in a state of war with Syria, or have no diplomatic relations with several other Arab states, it's theirs. Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia are Israel's enemies because they openly declared themselves to be, not because Israel "doesn't approve" of them.

Edited by Nicky

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Probeson, I'm not convinced that Israel systematically disenfranchises the non-Jew. You don't prove systematic disenfranchisement by naming a bunch of non-discriminatory laws. You prove systematic disenfranchisement by naming one law after another that actually discriminates. As an atheist, Israel is one of the countries I'd feel comfortable visiting. I can't say the same for any nation that surrounds Israel, including the occupied territories (that isn't an argument for Israel, but it does put Israel's government in context).

 

We've got some pretty robust discussions on this forum about the history of Israel, who was the aggressor, etc. This is the real heart of the matter. You seem to think the Palestinians are some innocent group of oppressed people who were blindsided by a Jewish blitzkrieg. I'm currently of the opinion that Israel has repeatedly defended itself from Arab aggression, that the Palestinians never gave up their anti-Semitic Jihad like some of their neighbors, and that Israel's long-term decisions are more or less justified. You could begin to convince me otherwise if you were to show me that the so-called Nakba was not a warranted response by Israelis to an existential threat.
 

Edited by FeatherFall

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Nicky,

 

Cmon man...

 

You know full well that when the Palestinians where ethnically cleansed from their homeland, many fled to these neighboring countries. Jews are cautioned against travelling to these countries for security reasons but Palestinians have families there. A petition was files against it. From the article in Haaretz:

 

"The petition goes on to argue that Israeli Arabs who travel to enemy states ? mainly to Syria ? usually do so to visit their families, and that barring them from doing so severely limits their freedom of movement."

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Nicky,

 

Cmon man...

 

You know full well that when the Palestinians where ethnically cleansed from their homeland, many fled to these neighboring countries. Jews are cautioned against travelling to these countries for security reasons but Palestinians have families there. A petition was files against it. From the article in Haaretz:

 

"The petition goes on to argue that Israeli Arabs who travel to enemy states ? mainly to Syria ? usually do so to visit their families, and that barring them from doing so severely limits their freedom of movement."

Do you think that Israeli Jews allowed to visit Syria? Israel is in the state of war with this country. The war never ended, the present situation is not peace but armistice. In the whole human history of wars no government ever allowed a free movement of  civilian population to and from enemy's  territory. Your problem is that you constantly take things out of context in order to present very distorted and biased picture of Israel. All anti-Zionists do that. If you think that such a position could promote peace in the Middle East or help Palestinians, you are mistaken.

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FeatherFall,

 

I've provided laws that prohibit denunciations of Israel as a state for Jews, I've shown laws that privilege Jews over non-Jews for citizenship while denying citizenship and the right of return for those who Arabs who were forced out, I've shown Equal Protection policy that show  "discrimination between Arabs and Jews is legitimate based on the founding principles of Israel as a state for the Jewish people", I've shown the Nationality Law that prohibits Palestinians from marrying Israelis, I've shown the National Planning Law that confiscates property from Arab Israelis but provides for illegal Jewish settlements...all of these are discriminatory. 

 

..and I haven't even begun to show why Palestinians living in the OPT should be included in the mix.

 

" I'm currently of the opinion that Israel has repeatedly defended itself from Arab aggression, that the Palestinians never gave up their anti-Semitic Jihad like some of their neighbors, and that Israel's long-term decisions are more or less justified. You could begin to convince me otherwise if you were to show me that the so-called Nakba was not a warranted response by Israelis to an existential threat."

 

Such discussions usually go nowhere. It should be clear to anyone who has objectively looked into this conflict that all of the wars Israel has fought happened outside its mandated borders. If this is true then how can one say it was defensive when it was clearly an invasion? And invasion is an act of aggression. Frankly, I do not see their resistance as anti-Semitism,,it's more like anti-colonialist.They have a right to resist by any means necessary. I firmly believe the agggressor forfeits ALL claims to morality, even the right to live.

 

 I may just visit the discussion...just to see how one justifies ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide....not to mention , creating the largest refuge population in the world.

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 PROBESO

France and Israel are two different animals. Israel is a melting pot of Jews from all over the world. It is an avowed "Jewish State". It is not united around principles, like America or France for that matter, but around religion-or being Jewish. Based on the evidence I have provided, there are a system of laws that favor Jews over non-Jews. That is plain to see. If you have laws on your books that will allow any Jew to immigrate but not any Arab, then you have a tiered system of laws that places one group in an superior position. 

 

If a Jew wanted to immigrate to America, " a country for whites", but we took all comers except Jews then that would be racist would it not? What if America only took white people but everyone else was refused? What if we displaced non-whites to make way for whites...would that be racist? What if a white citizen of America wanted to marry a non-white citizen from another country -thereby giving him/her citizenship but was refused...but could marry a white person under the same circumstances and have citizenship granted him/her? Would that sound like a system of institutional discrimination?

 

It's the same for Israel except they are a Jewish state. 

 

Around what principles French or Italians or Spaniards or Hungarians  united? The only country which has a philosophical foundation is USA. Why you deny from Jews a natural state in which all other nations exist? And you are mistaken by referring to Jews as religion. They are a nation exactly like French or Americans. They share language, culture and heritage. I for example a Jew and atheist. Even according to Judaism a Jew is a person who born from the Jewish mother, that's all. He could be Christian, Muslim or Hindu, but from the view point of Jewish and Israeli law he is a Jew. To deny the  country of Jews, created by Jews as a Jewish national home to be a Jewish State is a terrible discrimination. And this is not true that non-Jews are denied Israeli citizenship.  There are a million ethnic Russians who live in Israel as full citizens. Everybody could immigrate to Israel, the difference is only in the process of naturalization. So there is no apartheid in Israel. If you really look for the apartheid laws you should check the laws of Palestinian autonomy. Its laws stipulate that everybody who sell land or property to the Jew is punished by death. That means that I can buy land everywhere in the world but not in Judea, from where the very name of Jews originated. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/PA-affirms-death-penalty-for-land-sales-to-Israelis

 

"Muhammad Abu Shahala, who worked for the Palestinian Authority reportedly confessed under torture to selling his home in Hebron on the West Bank to a Jewish man."

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2134245/Former-Palestinian-intelligence-officer-sentenced-death-selling-home-Jew

 How about to BDS Palestinian autonomy? If people who call to BDS ( Boycott Disinvestment Sanction) Israel were having a grain of integrity they would do it.

 

BTW, why you are trying to revive the myth of ethnic cleansing which never took place? It is a historical fact, that the majority of Arab population left Palestine on their own ever before initiation of hostilities in anticipation that victorious Arab armies will drive Jews to the sea. Read " The Haj" by Leon Uris.

Edited by Leonid

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Probeson " It should be clear to anyone who has objectively looked into this conflict that all of the wars Israel has fought happened outside its mandated borders."

 

The person who undertakes on himself to discuss Israeli-Arab conflict should at least know that Israel hasn't had  any mandated borders till peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan. Israel doesn't have mandated borders with Syria, and Lebanon and for sure not with Palestinian autonomy for this is not a state.

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Nicky,

 

Cmon man...

 

You know full well that when the Palestinians where ethnically cleansed from their homeland, many fled to these neighboring countries. Jews are cautioned against travelling to these countries for security reasons but Palestinians have families there. A petition was files against it. From the article in Haaretz:

 

"The petition goes on to argue that Israeli Arabs who travel to enemy states ? mainly to Syria ? usually do so to visit their families, and that barring them from doing so severely limits their freedom of movement."

It is clear that your intention is to eliminate the Israeli state, for your ignorance is bliss.  Israelis are free to travel to Jordan and Egypt due to the peace treaties.  It is only when Egypt stopped protecting tourists that tourism dried up, and it is not just tourists from Israel that have left the Egyptian economy in shambles.  What country allows its citizens to visit another country while it is at war with that country?

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*******************

 

Such discussions usually go nowhere. It should be clear to anyone who has objectively looked into this conflict that all of the wars Israel has fought happened outside its mandated borders. If this is true then how can one say it was defensive when it was clearly an invasion? And invasion is an act of aggression. Frankly, I do not see their resistance as anti-Semitism,,it's more like anti-colonialist.They have a right to resist by any means necessary. I firmly believe the agggressor forfeits ALL claims to morality, even the right to live.

 

 I may just visit the discussion...just to see how one justifies ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide....not to mention , creating the largest refuge population in the world.

This is not only ignorance but an outright lie.  In 1948 and 1956, the Arabs invaded.  In 1967, the Arabs were amassed at Israel's border.  In 1973, Israel came close to losing the war.  How many terrorist - Palestinians - penetrated Israel to blow up its citizens in buses, cars, and on city streets.  Saddam Hussein launched dozens of scuds into Israel.  Hezbollah launched thousands of rockets inside Israel during its most recent war.  Hamas Palestinians constantly launch rockets into Israel.

 

I'm tired of your lies and attempts at misrepresenting the only proper civil society in that part of the world.  I will no longer respond to anything you say as your dishonesty knows no bounds.

Edited by A is A

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Jews are cautioned against travelling to these countries for security reasons

If you really believe that, then you're hopelessly clueless. The reason why Israelis can't travel to these countries is because the governments of these countries automatically deny a visa to anyone with an Israeli passport, or for that matter anyone with an Israeli stamp on their passport.

 

Saudi Airlines doesn't even allow Israelis on their flights, even if they're not traveling to Saudi Arabia.

Edited by Nicky

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Probeson, the mere geography of the war does not, in fact, allow you to identify the aggressor. You are on an Objectivist forum where we believe that threats of physical force are essentially no different from aggressive acts of physical violence. If I am surrounded by a bunch of thugs who are talking to each other about knocking me out, I'm not going to wait until one of them swings. I'm going to preempt the aggressive violence with a violent act of self defense. This idea translates just fine into national relations. The 6-day war is a perfect example of a preemptive strike used for the purpose of national defense. As far as the other wars are concerned, I think we might be reading from different history books.

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Probeson:,France and Israel are two different animals. Israel is a melting pot of Jews from all over the world. It is an avowed "Jewish State". It is not united around principles, like America or France for that matter, but around religion-or being Jewish.

 

in fact by referring to Jews as religion you deny nationhood from them and delegitimaze Israel. If it so, the rest of your argument is superfluous. If Jews are not a nation, Israel has no right to exist, no matter what it does or which laws he uses. 

Edited by Leonid

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Israel an apartheid state? That is simply laughable. There are Arabs in Israel's government, Arabs teaching in their schools, Arabs who enjoy more freedoms in Israel than they would in any of the Islamist states which circulate this Israeli apartheid nonsense.

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Right. The OP lacks knowledge of both apartheid and Zionism.

 

Anybody heard tell of a people or race who suffered persecution, religious or otherwise, in their country of birth - from which they fled, finding new lands scarcely populated, in which they settled and built - and after fighting wars to survive, finally secured their autonomy? Sound familiar?

 

One example, the early Dutch and Huguenot settlers in South Africa.

Another, Palestine, ceded by British Mandate to the Jews after WW2.

 

Anyone have another example of "Zionism"? :)

 

One way or other, many of us are "Zionists", I think.

Edited by whYNOT

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