I have never seen boobs before and am thinking about hiring an escort

[Eiuol]

DonAthos, I think the whole "get it out of the way" ideas in a sexual context is the core issue  here. The phrasing in other contexts means not being happy to do something but it must be done. Really I find that it demeans anything good about sex in the sense that there is a "problem" to fix. I'm not suggesting you think the OP must do it out of duty to grow up, I'm only saying it's the wrong way to show a positive attitude about sex towards someone who hasn't even been in front of someone naked. It sort of reaffirms the OPs anxiety. Sure, it's great the OP is looking for even a mild sexual experience, but the problem is the attitude towards sex.

I would agree 100% with you if the topic were "I feel comfortable with sex and I really think I have a good attitude and I'm even mentally ready, but I'm unsure about seeing an escort". But it seems to me the topic is about feeling shame for lack of experience. Is it proper or healthy for someone to pursue sex if there are psychological concerns underneath it? Sometimes, that's why there are sex therapists. Still, it's foolish for anyone to think finally seeing and touching a naked body will solve the real issue. I think it's more productive to put sexual things in a more positive light and see how to achieve a positive, healthy attitude.

[DonAthos]

 

That's actually a good point. I have a close relative who's a cognitive behavioral therapist. One of her more interesting treatments was for a man who was extremely anxious about speaking to women, for fear of being caught staring at her boobs. They brought in beautiful women with cleavage to challenge his perceptions, and he was cured within 3 days.

That does sound like an interesting treatment. You'll have to PM me your relative's work number; I suddenly feel some disorders coming on!

 

 

Fair enough. I suppose the premise of the question and his forum name didn't encourage me to take it seriously.

I understand and agree. I wouldn't have replied to the OP. But I do find the idea that using an escort (or some other sexual activity less than "ideal") is necessarily wrong is, itself, wrong, and worthy of response.

 

I actually came to this forum myself when I was going through the dilemma of dating a stripper.

LOL. It predates my activity on this site, but many years ago I briefly dated a Hooters waitress... and was informed by some Objectivists in my acquaintance that 1) she was immoral for working there, and 2) I was immoral to date her.

If you don't mind my asking, how did your situation resolve?

 

As far as attraction...maybe what Rand says about the "deepest vision of ourselves" applies to those who we choose to engage romantically, or have sex with. I think our views on sexuality are a bit rigid (you can just see the difference if you go to Italy, in their men). I've had plenty of sex that wasn't necessarily meaningful, but nothing to be ashamed of. So drawing the line between deciding if someone is worthy of "meaningful sex" and simply having casual sex, seems tricky to me.

I agree that these issues are "tricky." I am ambivalent with respect to Rand's views on sex and sexuality insofar as I understand them, except where she relayed to Peikoff that (paraphrasing his paraphrase) "philosophy says that sex is good." I can agree with that.

 

This almost works counter to my point about advising him not to seek an escort for his first boob touch, but only because I think a first time for something like that is meaningful, or at least significant enough that he'd never forget it.

I certainly think that can be true, for some. If it's available, I'd never recommend someone sacrifice a significant experience for something lesser. But do I think that it's necessarily available in all circumstances, for everybody? Or always preferable to wait (perhaps indefinitely)? I do not.

 

If the OP views it simply as a business transaction for the purposes of tactile discovery, then I can see how he'd have no regrets about it later in life....but otherwise I think one would always blush at the memory. However I suppose there's no reason to assume he'd do the same. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic.

I think my wife would describe me as being as-romantic-as-you'd-like. That said, do I blush, when I think of my youthful experiences in strip clubs? Or those relationships I've had, some quite loving and intimate and others less so, which did not pan out? I don't. I enjoy those memories and am glad for those experiences. I have as much of a reason as you do to assume that anyone else would react the same way that I have, which is to say "no reason," but I do have every reason to disagree with those who seem to imply that sexuality is one-size-fits-all. I'm sorry for the folks who have done things that they now regret, for whatever reason. I'm not sorry that I'm not one of them.

 

 

I can relate to the embarrassments anxiety brings. What's encouraging is personally learning that no matter how severe and prolonging they are, they can be utterly defeated given the right mindset and application. (I recently kicked 15+ years of social phobia, through a a one-year effort in 2012)

Congratulations. (For real. What I'm about to say may seem to undercut my applause, but seriously, personal triumphs like that are wonderful, and you should be proud.) I would only caution that... while I agree that such things can be defeated, I don't expect everyone to work on the same timetable. Not every obstacle is the same, and not every man is equally constituted. Even for those walking the same path, we are not always at the same place at the same time.

It's a somewhat different sort of thing, but I remember a girlfriend of mine who had to deal with a great deal of anxiety in getting into cars after a particularly bad auto accident. I was in the same accident and I pushed through my own anxiety with relative speed... and I was not sufficiently empathetic to her. I expected her to adjust just as quickly as I had done and acted like a real jerk when she didn't.

Now that's something I blush to remember, and regret.

 

I just can't relate to a debilitating anxiety that is caused by not touching boobs.

I can't relate to that specific anxiety either, except that I know what it's like to be anxious generally, and I can accept that people can have different quirks of personality (and sometimes perhaps stemming from personal details that I do not know). I have been told that Napoleon Bonaparte was afraid of cats. Bizarre! Absurd! What's up with that!? I don't know, but I respect that someone might actually have that fear. If I sought to help someone with such a fear, I guess I would start with taking it seriously and trying my best to empathize, with the tools available to me.

 

I'd think it'd stem from simply lack of confidence, self-esteem, or social phobia, and that those should be addressed first, as they could be aggravated by the situation/transaction. If it were a phobia, say of ineptitude with women for lack of even touching a boob, then maybe I'd say go for it.I'm not a behavioral therapist so I can't guess at how effective it'd be at challenging the fear.

Nor am I a therapist, and I can't make any particular "clinical" recommendations, for the OP or for anyone else. But I do feel comfortable making the case that such activities may have therapeutic benefits, and thus are not necessarily "meaningless." I do feel comfortable arguing against a general proscription against escorts, or such sexual encounters, because they are judged wrong/immoral/whatever en masse. The specific and actual context matters, and as we've agreed, these matters are "tricky."  Ultimately an individual must decide for himself what is best, based on his own personal context, and knowing that he will be the one to live with the results, for better or for worse.

 

If he's a rational man, it's not encouraging tho, as he'd just be thinking "She's only letting me do this because i'm paying her...this does nothing to imply I'll be good in bed."

That's certainly one of the thoughts a rational man may have in such a situation. I also enjoy (as a flight of fantasy, if nothing else) the idea that a person might think, "Neat. She's letting me do this because I'm paying her. I'm getting what I want. She's getting what she wants. Isn't life grand?" Or to put this another way, it does not take away from my enjoyment of a nice meal, knowing that the chef is only preparing that food for me because I'm paying him. Rather, it helps me to enjoy the experience, knowing that everyone involved is a willing and satisfied participant. You may well reply that sex and food are different, and I'll agree. But the manner in which they are different (and those aspects I might argue are similar) is worthy of reflection, and I would argue, further discussion.

To attempt a general observation, I do not think that money or financial transaction degrades human intercourse (pun intended). I do not think it devalues or cheapens. I esteem money and those who make it.

[Leonid]

Don't ask. Just go for it.

[Ben Archer]

Hey don, no idea why I didn't see your reply until now! And thank you for the encouragement on the social phobia battle I might write a blog or something on it one day

 

 

 

LOL. It predates my activity on this site, but many years ago I briefly dated a Hooters waitress... and was informed by some Objectivists in my acquaintance that 1) she was immoral for working there, and 2) I was immoral to date her.

If you don't mind my asking, how did your situation resolve?

 

Funny, because before stripping she was a Hooter's girl too. I eventually had to end it...she had a lot of other issues going on. Regardless, even if she hadn't been (batsh*t-crazy-psycho-stalker-ex) slightly odd, I never could have stayed with a woman who was willing to get naked for $30. "Objectively", there's nothing wrong with it, and I don't think less of women that do, but to me, I'd want a woman who found her body more sacred than that, and a privilege to only a few. If it had been just dancing (and not lap dances), like burlesque, then I'd have no problem with it, even if it was nude. The difference is in the intimacy I think, and the way they have to work for tips. I've yet to visit a strip club lol

 

 

 

It's a somewhat different sort of thing, but I remember a girlfriend of mine who had to deal with a great deal of anxiety in getting into cars after a particularly bad auto accident. I was in the same accident and I pushed through my own anxiety with relative speed... and I was not sufficiently empathetic to her. I expected her to adjust just as quickly as I had done and acted like a real jerk when she didn't.

 

One thing I've learned is that it can be very hard to empathize with people who can't seem to get a handle on their anxiety. So when social phobia was an issue, knowing this, it made it much trickier to try to communicate the problem, for fear of the usual "just don't be so nervous!" or "just go do something fun", and etc, kind of advice. Usually it came from people who genuinely cared about me, but without educating themselves on the anxiety, couldn't relate. It's also the responsibility of the affected to get a proper diagnosis, though. Almost anyone could look at symptoms on a Wikipedia article for anxiety disorders and convince themselves they need therapy/medication. 

 

 

 

To attempt a general observation, I do not think that money or financial transaction degrades human intercourse (pun intended). I do not think it devalues or cheapens. I esteem money and those who make it.

I think that's true. I suppose the OP isn't asking a question which has an Objective answer, as any group of rational people will still have a wide variety of preferences and tolerances.