I have never seen boobs before and am thinking about hiring an escort

[never_seen_boobs 0]

Sorry if this post seems crass...that's not my intent. but anyway. I have never seen boobs IRL before and really want to. Since a willing girl is not currently available to me, I have been considering hiring an escort. My goals for the encounter would simply be to view, feel and play with her tittays, but I would NOT want to do full service. So today I looked up a reviewed escort with a good repuation and acceptable boobs in my area who does outcalls and talked to her on the phone. She agreed to come and I told her I would text her my address, but when I hung up, I just couldn't do it. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of sitting there intimately gawking and touching someone I don't even know and wouldn't like if I did. I would be so nervous, and possibly so disgusted with myself that I might not even be able to get aroused. The fakeness of it would ruin it for me, and if I did get aroused, I'd be afraid that I would decide to go for full service in the heat of the moment, and then be totally disgusted with myself the moment it was over. It will also cost $180 to get her out here (she charges the 1 hr rate minimum for outcalls), and even though this particular hooker has a good reputation, I'm scared of pimps/bodyguards if she has one, and scared of the sex industry in general. So it's been half an hour since I talked to her and I still haven't send her my address yet and probably won't. What's your guys' opinion on this?

[StrictlyLogical 359]

Trolling of trawling?

 

Evaluate why and how much you want this and weigh it against all possible consequences.  Honour any consensual transaction you enter into.

 

 

The other option is to consider this adventure really as part of a whole experience you may have with a woman who is your friend .. if you want that experience more (and it comes highly recommended) I suggest you wait and seek it out.

[thenelli01 28]

Assuming this is something you are set on doing (not evaluating the morality of it), it would be much more practical (safe, cost-effective, less pressure) to just go to strip club if there is one in your area.

Edited November 18, 2013 by thenelli01

[Ben Archer 4]

I'm guessing evade account? Shouldn't be too hard to match the ISP and see if this is trolling. 

 

If you're serious...don't do it. I feel like I'd be embarrassed with myself anytime I thought about it, for the rest of my life. Just get your act together, use okcupid, date some girls...maybe you'll get to be super awkward around her boobs like you're describing. 

 

what if you're married one day and your wife asks about your first time? Or even jokingly asks if you've ever hired an escort. 

 

http://youtu.be/IlD08Rh6xa8

[Eiuol 362]

She agreed to come and I told her I would text her my address, but when I hung up, I just couldn't do it. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of sitting there intimately gawking and touching someone I don't even know and wouldn't like if I did. I would be so nervous, and possibly so disgusted with myself that I might not even be able to get aroused.

I have to wonder, if it makes you so uncomfortable, why do you want to pursue this route any further? Beyond that, not enough context to say anything more.

[JASKN 240]

I feel like I'd be embarrassed with myself anytime I thought about it, for the rest of my life. Just get your act together, use okcupid, date some girls...maybe you'll get to be super awkward around her boobs like you're describing. 

 

what if you're married one day and your wife asks about your first time? Or even jokingly asks if you've ever hired an escort. 

You *know* you'd be embarrassed, or you feel it? The point being, how do you know an experience with an escort needs to be embarrassing, or by implication, bad?

I don't see why an escort can't help extreme cases of awkwardness, in certain circumstances... assuming the necessary precautions were taken for basic safety. But, we don't know much circumstances based on the original post.

[thenelli01 28]

You *know* you'd be embarrassed, or you feel it? The point being, how do you know an experience with an escort needs to be embarrassing, or by implication, bad?

 

I read that differently. I don't think that he meant the experience would be embarrassing, but the fact that he went to an escort would be embarrassing (i.e. you might regret this later). I tend to agree. Not to get too personal, but I have done things (not with an escort) that I regret, and I hate that I did it, that I know that I did it, and would hate to explain it to my future partners if they asked.

Edited November 18, 2013 by thenelli01

[JASKN 240]

I read that differently. I don't think that he meant the experience would be embarrassing, but the fact that he went to an escort would be embarrassing (i.e. you might regret this later).

That's what I intended to mean. Personally, I don't see why an escort is "bad." The arrangement is upfront, honest, clear.

[thenelli01 28]

Personally, I don't see why an escort is "bad." The arrangement is upfront, honest, clear.

 

 

It's also upfront, honest, and clear to threaten to murder someone and carry out the threat.

 

I'm not getting into the detail of the OP, but for me, I have too high of esteem for myself to go to a random stranger and pay them to use their body. The knowledge that I did something like that would cause me to think less of myself, which is not worth the short-lived pleasure.

Edited November 18, 2013 by thenelli01

[JASKN 240]

It doesn't require low self esteem to hire a prostitute, and equating murder and prostitution is just sensational. What precisely is "something like that," and why is it bad? Why is "using" a body in the context of a consensual agreement between adults bad?

[thenelli01 28]

Personally, I don't see why an escort is "bad." The arrangement is upfront, honest, clear.

 

It doesn't require low self esteem to hire a prostitute, and equating murder and prostitution is just sensational. 

 

I didn't equate murder and prostitution, I was simply pointing out that just because an act is upfront, honest, and clear, doesn't make it good. It is the nature of the act itself that needs to be considered.

 

 

What precisely is "something like that," and why is it bad? Why is "using" a body in the context of a consensual agreement between adults bad?

 

Again, I was speaking for myself. I am not talking about the OP or anyone else besides myself and my own situation. It is bad because I know 1) I would be psychologically scarred for at least a year thinking about STDs and 2) The knowledge of knowing, for the rest of my life, that I went to a prostitute for sexual services would make me think less of myself. I don't want to be associated with those types of persons or that life style in any way. You are paying someone to use their body for sex. It's essentially like paying someone to be your friend. The intimacy and connection, which I desire, isn't real.

Edited November 18, 2013 by thenelli01

[Dante 256]

It doesn't require low self esteem to hire a prostitute, and equating murder and prostitution is just sensational. What precisely is "something like that," and why is it bad? Why is "using" a body in the context of a consensual agreement between adults bad?

 

In this particular case, it seems to me like it would be in the service of a meaningless 'milestone.'  The idea that touching breasts, regardless of the context, is some sort of milestone strikes me as ridiculous.  The only people that take this conception of manhood seriously are middle school and high school boys who regard 'getting laid' as the pinnacle of their existence.

 

Now, getting intimate with someone that you like for the first time, that can be a major event.  But 'seeing boobs' or 'touching boobs' ripped out of this context is meaningless.

 

Someone linked a clip from the 40 Year Old Virgin above.  That movie has a great scene where Steve Carrell is finally going to lose his virginity, with this random girl he met at a bookstore (really hot and reeeally freaky).  However, once he gets up to her place it's just weird and awkward and he leaves.  Instead, he has his first time with the woman he's falling in love with, and he's much happier for it.

 

To the OP, save your money.

[JASKN 240]

Now, getting intimate with someone that you like for the first time, that can be a major event. But 'seeing boobs' or 'touching boobs' ripped out of this context is meaningless.

True. However, you can't know something 'till you know it. If someone younger hasn't made much connection with women and can't stop thinking of sex, a single (as safe as possible) experience with a prostitute could throw a whole lot of reality into a concrete context, faster and "realer" than five or ten years if beating around the bush, uncomfortably avoiding encounters with women. In other words, a single time with a prostitute might very well make it clear why a prostitute is not the answer, and save years of misdirected longing.

[DonAthos 292]

Now, getting intimate with someone that you like for the first time, that can be a major event.  But 'seeing boobs' or 'touching boobs' ripped out of this context is meaningless.

Meaningless to whom? While I can agree that sex with someone you love is different than otherwise, and preferable, I don't agree that this necessarily renders all other kinds of sexual experience "meaningless" or valueless. So long as a person understands what he's getting in engaging with prostitution (and also what he is not getting), I don't understand why it can't be a positive thing, to purchase those things that a person values and desires -- even physical pleasure, and even the specific physical pleasure which comes from sexual acts.

Edited November 18, 2013 by DonAthos

[FeatherFall 81]

Someone linked a clip from the 40 Year Old Virgin above.  That movie has a great scene where Steve Carrell is finally going to lose his virginity, with this random girl he met at a bookstore (really hot and reeeally freaky).  However, once he gets up to her place it's just weird and awkward and he leaves.  Instead, he has his first time with the woman he's falling in love with, and he's much happier for it.

 

The implicit assumption is that sex with the woman he's falling in love with is cheapened after sex with the bookstore freak. While it could be, especially in the case of an ongoing romance, I don't think this is necessarily true. There is no betrayal to cheapen the experience if he hasn't met his sweetheart yet.

Edited November 18, 2013 by FeatherFall

[Dante 256]

It should be noted that the OP isn't talking about sex at all.  He's talking about seeing/touching a boob as if that's a significant milestone in and of itself.  The claims of middle schoolers notwithstanding, it isn't.

[DonAthos 292]

It should be noted that the OP isn't talking about sex at all.

I realize that. At the same time, I believe that there is more currently under discussion in the thread than was raised in the OP, something more interesting/general, and I believe that your analysis of events in The 40 Year Old Virgin speaks to that more interesting, more general matter.

If we want to confine the discussion to whether or not there is anything rational(?) in wanting to play with a woman's breasts, just for that particular experience, of course we can... though I don't think that any post subsequent to the OP has construed this topic so narrowly.

But if you were only talking about the specific matter of breast play, we can revisit your quote:

 

Now, getting intimate with someone that you like for the first time, that can be a major event. But 'seeing boobs' or 'touching boobs' ripped out of this context is meaningless.

What specific physical activities could a person engage an escort for that would count as "meaningful" enough to constitute a value worth pursing/paying for? Or are other, similar physical activities also rendered meaningless, being also ripped out of the context of intimacy with someone you like?

And do you believe that breast play is necessarily meaningless for a man who has never had that experience, and regardless of one's psychology and history with respect to women? Or do you believe that there might be some potential for therapeutic value, depending on the specifics involved? (For instance, boarding an airplane is not much in the way of "milestones"... for me. But for someone terrified of flying, I believe that might be a very significant event.)

Edited November 19, 2013 by DonAthos

[Ben Archer 4]

Oh wow, I didn't realize this post would be taken seriously...what a gem to come back to a few days later and find we're discussing the therapeutic values of breast play haha...

 

I swear whoever made this account is just trolling the Objectivist enthusiasm for fastening on the smallest trivium. 

 

I always like Rand's idea that we are attracted to our deepest vision of ourselves. If the OP was actually so intent as to create a account to pose the question, and has already gotten the funds ready, I'd suspect that touching a boob would be very meaningful to him. Of course in a few years, it likely won't seem as meaningful, assuming—through sheer learned skill or proper Booby Budgeting—he's been able to grope regularly.

 

But wouldn't it be slightly  more embarrassing to know that you had to hire an escort? Maybe if it was a meaningless transaction, but again, it seems pretty important to the lad. 

Edited November 19, 2013 by Ben Archer

[JASKN 240]

I swear whoever made this account is just trolling the Objectivist enthusiasm for fastening on the smallest trivium.

I was going to question you about this, but I see you've already contradicted this sentiment by fastening on the smallest trivium yourself, in the very same post.

[StrictlyLogical 359]

 

I swear whoever made this account is just trolling the Objectivist enthusiasm for fastening on the smallest trivium. 

 

 

What exactly do you mean by "the smallest trivium"? 

[Ben Archer 4]

I was going to question you about this, but I see you've already contradicted this sentiment by fastening on the smallest trivium yourself, in the very same post.

 

You missed the fun I had with it though, apparently. Aren't you a mod? Look up the ISP if you'd like. 

 

 

What exactly do you mean by "the smallest trivium"?  

 

What do you mean? It's like a psychoanalyst does when they believe something to be the projecting handle of some important but buried reality, and seek for meanings which are often strange and sometimes repugnant to common sense.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Ben Archer

[StrictlyLogical 359]

I was jokingly "exhibiting" enthusiasm for fastening on the smallest trivium by asking what "exactly" what you meant... har har?

[Ben Archer 4]

I was jokingly "exhibiting" enthusiasm for fastening on the smallest trivium by asking what "exactly" what you meant... har har?

[DonAthos 292]

Oh wow, I didn't realize this post would be taken seriously...what a gem to come back to a few days later and find we're discussing the therapeutic values of breast play haha...

Hey Ben, I don't think much of the original post myself. (And come to it, thenelli01's advice of "go to a strip club" seems pretty good to me to resolve his actual question.) But then, you don't need to take the OP "seriously" to think that there are issues worth discussion as raised in some of the subsequent replies.

And the "therapeutic values of breast play"? Hahahah perhaps, but yeah, sure, why not? I think that there are some people who have mental/emotional issues when it comes to sex, to women, etc., and I think that some experiences (whether formal or informal) may help them to deal with those issues. JASKN spoke to this, saying:

 

I don't see why an escort can't help extreme cases of awkwardness, in certain circumstances... assuming the necessary precautions were taken for basic safety.

If we imagine someone obsessing about breasts and the fact that they've not seen them or whatever, it might do such a person good to get that out of the way, rather than continue to stew and wait for that "special someone."

 

I swear whoever made this account is just trolling the Objectivist enthusiasm for fastening on the smallest trivium.

Who cares about whoever made that account and their motivation? If they break the forum rules, we'll handle that through moderation. In the meantime, I have to tell you that I don't consider sex or sexuality to be trivial -- and yes, I'm "enthusiastic" about ideas, trying to promote the good and root out the bad. I grew up in, and live in, a culture with severely screwed up sexual attitudes. I'd like to raise my own family in a different sort of culture, if possible, and I'd like to be able to identify what's right and what's wrong as part of that process.

 

I always like Rand's idea that we are attracted to our deepest vision of ourselves.

As paraphrased here, I don't know whether I can agree. I find that people are sometimes attracted to a range of people, and while we might say that everyone we're attracted to reflects some aspect of "our deepest vision of ourselves" (which would come nearer to my own thoughts on the matter), I don't yet think those are the very same sentiments.

 

If the OP was actually so intent as to create a account to pose the question, and has already gotten the funds ready, I'd suspect that touching a boob would be very meaningful to him. Of course in a few years, it likely won't seem as meaningful, assuming—through sheer learned skill or proper Booby Budgeting—he's been able to grope regularly.

I agree. And I think that when you say that "touching a boob...won't seem as meaningful," where the OP has come to realize (per Dante) that it was never an activity of much importance, outside of love, that we are discussing some of the possible therapeutic benefits raised earlier.

 

But wouldn't it be slightly  more embarrassing to know that you had to hire an escort?

More embarrassing than what? I'd guess that for some people, their own inexperience is a source of embarrassment and anxiety such that it can interfere with their ability to find and enjoy better/richer experiences. I'm not certain of the Calculus to compare one potential embarrassment to the other (it likely would vary by case), but I can imagine some people who do not want to wind up "40 Year Old Virgins," and to whom experiences with an escort may provide more benefit over time than not.

Maybe some of those people would, even so, find it embarrassing that they had hired an escort, even if they judged the net result to be positive? Certainly it is popular to think that there's something inherently wrong with sex-as-commerce, and that idea holds a lot of sway in media, etc. But you know, I think that many people who use therapy (of any kind) are embarrassed of the fact. My off-the-cuff advice would be to not feel embarrassed for doing those things that you find best to help yourself, and to not listen to those who tell you to be ashamed for it.

Edited November 20, 2013 by DonAthos

[Ben Archer 4]

 

If we imagine someone obsessing about breasts and the fact that they've not seen them or whatever, it might do such a person good to get that out of the way, rather than continue to stew and wait for that "special someone."

That's actually a good point. I have a close relative who's a cognitive behavioral therapist. One of her more interesting treatments was for a man who was extremely anxious about speaking to women, for fear of being caught staring at her boobs. They brought in beautiful women with cleavage to challenge his perceptions, and he was cured within 3 days. 

 

"Who cares about whoever made that account and their motivation? If they break the forum rules, we'll handle that through moderation. In the meantime, I have to tell you that I don't consider sex or sexuality to be trivial "

 

 

Fair enough. I suppose the premise of the question and his forum name didn't encourage me to take it seriously. I actually came to this forum myself when I was going through the dilemma of dating a stripper. 

As far as attraction...maybe what Rand says about the "deepest vision of ourselves" applies to those who we choose to engage romantically, or have sex with. I think our views on sexuality are a bit rigid (you can just see the difference if you go to Italy, in their men). I've had plenty of sex that wasn't necessarily meaningful, but nothing to be ashamed of. So drawing the line between deciding if someone is worthy of "meaningful sex" and simply having casual sex, seems tricky to me. 

This almost works counter to my point about advising him not to seek an escort for his first boob touch, but only because I think a first time for something like that is meaningful, or at least significant enough that he'd never forget it. If the OP views it simply as a business transaction for the purposes of tactile discovery,  then I can see how he'd have no regrets about it later in life....but otherwise I think one would always blush at the memory. However I suppose there's no reason to assume he'd do the same. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic. 

 

"More embarrassing than what? I'd guess that for some people, their own inexperience is a source of embarrassment and anxiety such that it can interfere with their ability to find and enjoy better/richer experiences"

 

 

I can relate to the embarrassments anxiety brings. What's encouraging is personally learning that no matter how severe and prolonging they are, they can be utterly defeated given the right mindset and application. (I recently kicked 15+ years of social phobia, through a a one-year effort in 2012)

I just can't relate to a debilitating anxiety that is caused by not touching boobs. I'd think it'd stem from simply lack of confidence, self-esteem, or social phobia, and that those should be addressed first, as they could be aggravated by the situation/transaction. If it were a phobia, say of ineptitude with women for lack of even touching a boob, then maybe I'd say go for it.I'm not a behavioral therapist so I can't guess at how effective it'd be at challenging the fear. If he's a rational man, it's not encouraging tho, as he'd just be thinking "She's only letting me do this because i'm paying her...this does nothing to imply I'll be good in bed."

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by Ben Archer