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Dear reader,
 
I used to think like you at one point, and I have to say it takes maturity, putting yourself in another person's shoes and actually being willing to own up to the privilege that you have for you to be able to acknowledge what they're saying is correct. Until that point, nothing I say will ever make a difference, and you will remain wrapped up in your childish haughtiness and scoffing, condescending remarks.

You're too focused on yourself - you feel victimised, you feel targeted, you are offended, you aren't being catered to. You're not even considering anyone else, you're focusing on your own feelings of discomfort. (The same discomfort PoC have to face their entire lives.) The funny thing is, though you mock it, white men are privileged above everyone else. You hold the power. You have the say. You are the voice that is listened to. You always have been. The world caters specifically to you. You are the ones in control.

I, too, have privilege as a white person over PoC. 

(And I believe the "white person killing a black person vs. vice versa" comment is likely referring to the highly controversial George Zimmerman case, which actually proves the point the OP in that post is making.)

Why would I want to justify racism towards whites? I am white. You - and millions like you - are operating under the fundamental misunderstanding that things are equal. They are not. PoC experience racism and discrimination on a regular basis in a way they we don't see or experience, because society benefits us as white people. Our experiences cannot compare. We are not victims of racial profiling. We are not turned down jobs or opportunities or homes because of the color of our skin. We are not victims of ludicrous stereotypes that cause people to judge us wrongly or mock our culture. We haven't been victims of hate crimes. We are not subject to words and terms that dehumanise us. We do not have centuries of systematic oppression and abuse behind us. It was not us who less than a 100 years ago were seen as less than secondary citizens. We are never made to feel "not good enough" because of our skin. The media, fashion, marketing and what is considered beautiful, caters to us - white women, white men. We are the ones represented in films, music, books. We see ourselves everywhere. We never feel like we aren't included or do not belong anywhere (this is also why "white people" societies at university are ridiculous ideas at best.)

We do not get to decide what no longer matters in racism, what is irrelevant and what is and is not racist. When we're insulted, it is not a throwback to decades of abuse and discrimination. It is at best a personal attack that briefly offends us and highlights, for a moment, our race - something that happens to PoC most days - and we feel it constitutes "racism" the same as what PoC suffer from. That is wrong.

Other cultures do not have our history of invasion, of dominating other cultures and appropriating them, of slavery and imperialism. It is white people behind most of the damage done to other parts of the world, and it was primarily white men who did the damage - obviously due to women's roles in society at the time - hence why they say "white men." It is the truth, and no one is going to apologise if that makes you feel uncomfortable. They are not going to be polite and hospitable to someone who talks to them so patronizingly and ignores hundreds of years of oppression and racism to make themselves feel better, and preaches their ignorant perception of "equality" when we're not even there yet.

 

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The psychology of racism:  worth bearing in mind, which the OP put well - but always going to be trumped by individualism at the personal, as well as the rights level.

Treated in the above manner, there always seems to be an appeal to a kind of special treatment, by way of guilt by ancestry. That is racist inherently, too. Any self-respecting, rational person of any race would find being singled out by his race, unacceptable and abhorrent.

I admit though, that outside of this rational minority, there is a huge amount of racist bigotry still prevalent, subtle or explicit - but this must be opposed on grounds of principle.

What about a future in which the past and present socially-repressed races (through numbers, capability, power and wealth) are dominant? Are they going to be perfect and rational in their treatment of the minority 'white class'? Will racism disappear, or just become 'reverse racism'? 

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Racists are collectivists/socialists by definition because of their conceiving of themselves and others not as individuals but as members of groups, races, colors etc, We, however, can agree that when membership in a "group"  is not a specific voluntary choice, it is an irrelevant construct which does not necessary apply to the particular individual and is not a proper basis for judgement of a person.

 

This is the root of the problem with racism, judging individuals not by merit and their actual individual natures/characters etc, but by "proxy" and in the light of stereotypes (good OR bad) associated with the "group".  Such stereotypes are inapplicable and erroneous because people are unique individuals with volition.

 

A white person and a PoC can be racist, but a white person or a PoC who is an Objectivist is NOT a racist and does not judge based on color or any other irrelevant attribute. To do so would be to commit a gross error.

 

 

Racism is racism, it goes both ways, it goes all ways... never judge a person based on skin color, because dong so is simply MISjudging the person.

Edited by StrictlyLogical

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What about a future in which the past and present socially-repressed races (through numbers, capability, power and wealth) are dominant? Are they going to be perfect and rational in their treatment of the minority 'white class'? Will racism disappear, or just become 'reverse racism'? 

Some postulate it has already become reverse racism in some places. 

 

In this thread I ask whether individuals have a right to defend themselves against that hypothetical future in which socially repressed masses of any color become dominant specifically through numbers. http://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?showtopic=26866

Edited by volco

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The psychology of racism:  worth bearing in mind, which the OP put well - but always going to be trumped by individualism at the personal, as well as the rights level.

I agree. This reminds me of the eye color experiment by teacher Jane Elliot. It's an important point and often very revealing (or upsetting) to whites who do participate.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MYHBrJIIFU

Edited by Ben Archer

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Jane Elliot then went on to do some awful workshop inducing white guilt during workshops. 

 

The experiment also disturbingly showed that the students involved in the experiment performed better than those who did not take place in it, presumably because for a short period of time they were made felt that they were inherently better. Power of suggestion I suppose. http://youtu.be/N-1EPNmYKiI

Edited by volco

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Dear reader,

I used to think like you at one point,

You have no clue what your reader thinks. And don't patronize him with the "Dear Reader". Do you seriously think it reduces the insult?

 

...and I have to say it takes maturity, putting yourself in another person's shoes and actually being willing to own up to the privilege that you have for you to be able to acknowledge what they're saying is correct. Until that point, nothing I say will ever make a difference, and you will remain wrapped up in your childish haughtiness and scoffing, condescending remarks.

You just committed a logical fallacy here. Basically, instead of arguing why your reader should think your way, you assert that if he were mature then he would. Huh! So, he is not mature, and he won't...so why bother?

 

You're too focused on yourself - you feel victimized, you feel targeted, you are offended, you aren't being catered to. You're not even considering anyone else, you're focusing on your own feelings of discomfort. (The same discomfort PoC have to face their entire lives.) The funny thing is, though you mock it, white men are privileged above everyone else. You hold the power. You have the say. You are the voice that is listened to. You always have been. The world caters specifically to you. You are the ones in control.

You're mixing issues here. Black folk, yellow folk, Indians, Mexicans et. al, should all try to make the most of their lives. This is a rational "focus on self". Feeling victimized is fine if you're a victim, but an unjustified feeling of victimization is irrational. What makes you think it has anything to do with a rational focus on self? Recognizing reality is a starting point for rationality, and this is a starting point to knowing how to engineer change. And, in turn, this is the way one gets things one wants in life. And who mocks genuine victimization... what are you talking about? Are you responding to something you read somewhere? If so link...otherwise, your critique is gratuitous.

 

I, too, have privilege as a white person over PoC.

Good for you. I am not white, so there goes your "Dear Reader" reference.

 

Why would I want to justify racism towards whites? I am white. You - and millions like you - are operating under the fundamental misunderstanding that things are equal.

Millions! Are you kidding? Maybe that's how thing are in the U.K., but in the U.S. most of the millions of white folk will tell you that they're privileged compared to blacks. They've had this drilled into them for a few decades now, and still own some of the guilt for some imaginary ancestor (probably on behalf of some poor sod who fought against the south in the civil war, lol!)

 

PoC experience racism and discrimination...

Sure. This is the first reality-based paragraph in your post. But, it really goes nowhere.

 

We do not get to decide what no longer matters in racism, what is irrelevant and what is and is not racist. When we're insulted, it is not a throwback to decades of abuse and discrimination. It is at best a personal attack that briefly offends us and highlights, for a moment, our race - something that happens to PoC most days - and we feel it constitutes "racism" the same as what PoC suffer from. That is wrong.

Each of us needs to decide what terms mean, and what is right and wrong. We should not take such evaluations unquestioningly form people, whether they have the same color of skin as we do, or its color-negative.

 

ther cultures do not have our history of invasion, of dominating other cultures and appropriating them, of slavery and imperialism.

You need to read some history. I've never understood this idea that it is fine to be oppressed by someone who has the same skin color as myself.

 

Their whiteness had nothing to do with any damage. You can just as well claim that Christians did all the damage! But, if you mean what goes as modern/western civilization it is true that it has been the main driver of modern history, but not just of the bad. Yes, it is true that you can trace evils like India's socialism and China's communism to western thinkers, but you can also trace their recent changes toward wealth to western ideas as well. So, you're biased if you focus on one but not the other.

 

It is the truth, and no one is going to apologise if that makes you feel uncomfortable.

Did someone somewhere say that black folk should apologize for something?

 

They are not going to be polite and hospitable to someone who talks to them so patronizingly and ignores hundreds of years of oppression and racism to make themselves feel better, and preaches their ignorant perception of "equality" when we're not even there yet.

Who talks to black people patronizingly? Who are you talking about? Of course one expects most people to be polite (you too, incidentally), in most ordinary contexts. One expects people to recognize that each individual is an individual, and to be polite to unknown humans until their individual experience tells them different.

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Racists are collectivists/socialists by definition because of their conceiving of themselves and others not as individuals but as members of groups, races, colors etc, We, however, can agree that when membership in a "group"  is not a specific voluntary choice, it is an irrelevant construct which does not necessary apply to the particular individual and is not a proper basis for judgement of a person.

 

This is the root of the problem with racism, judging individuals not by merit and their actual individual natures/characters etc, but by "proxy" and in the light of stereotypes (good OR bad) associated with the "group".  Such stereotypes are inapplicable and erroneous because people are unique individuals with volition.

 

A white person and a PoC can be racist, but a white person or a PoC who is an Objectivist is NOT a racist and does not judge based on color or any other irrelevant attribute. To do so would be to commit a gross error.

 

 

Racism is racism, it goes both ways, it goes all ways... never judge a person based on skin color, because dong so is simply MISjudging the person.

 

Precisely stated, so not much to add. That last sentence alone is critical, because as you indicate, it is  (above and before the injustice in reality that one commits on another person) an assault on one's own mind to make such misjudgements.

In this way then, surely Objectivism furnishes a twin indictment of racism? (OK, they combine into one ultimately.)

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(And I believe the "white person killing a black person vs. vice versa" comment is likely referring to the highly controversial George Zimmerman case, which actually proves the point the OP in that post is making.)

 

 

 

Did you plagiarize some open letter but forgot to take out this part?

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I agree. This reminds me of the eye color experiment by teacher Jane Elliot. It's an important point and often very revealing (or upsetting) to whites who do participate.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MYHBrJIIFU

 

I don't think the blue-eyed group were upset that they were getting discriminated against. They were upset that the experiment assumed that they were racist (by Jane Elliot's own admission) and assumed that they didn't understand what it meant to be discriminated against. The video wasn't eye opening or revealing, it was racist and disgusting.

 

I think it might be useful for people who admittedly think that racism isn't a problem or not a big deal, but not for someone like me. I don't need to be psychologically spit on for my race to understand what it means to be psychologically spit on.

Edited by thenelli01

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I don't think the blue-eyed group were upset that they were getting discriminated against. They were upset that the experiment assumed that they were racist (by Jane Elliot's own admission) and assumed that they didn't understand what it meant to be discriminated against. The video wasn't eye opening or revealing, it was racist and disgusting.

 

 

Ah, but that's the point! They didn't rebel, they just took it. The only people who really "got it" were the two people who were kicked out for failing to conform. Most people seemed to go on for the sake of the workshop, believing that the blue eyed people still were ignorant of racism. The brown eyed people went along with the myth of brown eyed power, believing they have a superior understanding of racism. A lot of the blue eyed people just followed directions, just doing whatever authority said. Most brown eyed people did too. So, if anything, collectivism is front and center of every interaction. Anything Jane Elliot said during the experiment was an act, probably getting people to think about what they'd do if it was all real. Somehow, acting as an authority figure was enough to get people to accept mistreatment.

 

If you have nothing to learn, you'd be kicked out, meaning you "passed" your test for understanding racism. Or, if you sabotaged the workshop. Notice that there were no formal rules - imagine a mock revolt by having fellow brown eyed people bring the good food to the blue eyed people!

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The experiment also disturbingly showed that the students involved in the experiment performed better than those who did not take place in it, presumably because for a short period of time they were made felt that they were inherently better. 

She rigs the test though, the blue-eyed test is much harder and she gives the brown-eyeds the answer. 

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Why would I want to justify racism towards whites? I am white. You - and millions like you - are operating under the fundamental misunderstanding that things are equal. They are not. PoC experience racism and discrimination on a regular basis in a way they we don't see or experience, because society benefits us as white people. Our experiences cannot compare. We are not victims of racial profiling. We are not turned down jobs or opportunities or homes because of the color of our skin. We are not victims of ludicrous stereotypes that cause people to judge us wrongly or mock our culture. We haven't been victims of hate crimes. We are not subject to words and terms that dehumanise us. We do not have centuries of systematic oppression and abuse behind us. It was not us who less than a 100 years ago were seen as less than secondary citizens. We are never made to feel "not good enough" because of our skin. The media, fashion, marketing and what is considered beautiful, caters to us - white women, white men. We are the ones represented in films, music, books. We see ourselves everywhere. We never feel like we aren't included or do not belong anywhere (this is also why "white people" societies at university are ridiculous ideas at best.)

We do not get to decide what no longer matters in racism, what is irrelevant and what is and is not racist. When we're insulted, it is not a throwback to decades of abuse and discrimination. It is at best a personal attack that briefly offends us and highlights, for a moment, our race - something that happens to PoC most days - and we feel it constitutes "racism" the same as what PoC suffer from. That is wrong.

 

 

  No, I know things aren't equal. I just know it isn't my fault. I have had a black DEA officer tell me not to buy weed from black people. Most sex workers avoid black men altogether, often explicitly saying so on their adds. I once gave my black neighbor a ride to the mall, and he stole shirt ties while I was there. Black men robbed my friends. Black men threw a garbage can thew my friend's window.  

 

   (All of these stories involve perpetrators who were different people in different parts of the city.)  

 

   What do people expect? That whites are just going to pretend that certain groups do not tend to be more dangerous than others? That is like asking women to keep just as much of an eye for female rapists as male rapists. 

 

  I know very well that there is something severely wrong. However I have personally never been anything but fair and individualistic with my interactions with everyone no matter what their appearance or background is. I didn't do it because some Social Justice Warrior told me about white privileged. I understand what bias and bigotry are, so I can actually counteract it. 

 

  Look, if minorities and immigrants want to talk about media representation, how they are treated,  and how they can accelerate "the melting pot" then I am game for that. If people want me to feel bad for supporting Israel, getting adrenaline rushes around black men, or for being wealthy while others are poor, they can fuck themselves. 

 

FormerFulhamFan, on 23 Dec 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

 

Other cultures do not have our history of invasion, of dominating other cultures and appropriating them, of slavery and imperialism. It is white people behind most of the damage done to other parts of the world, and it was primarily white men who did the damage - obviously due to women's roles in society at the time - hence why they say "white men." It is the truth, and no one is going to apologise if that makes you feel uncomfortable. They are not going to be polite and hospitable to someone who talks to them so patronizingly and ignores hundreds of years of oppression and racism to make themselves feel better, and preaches their ignorant perception of "equality" when we're not even there yet.

 

 

    No, all cultures have histories of invasion and domination. Read any history book about anywhere you will find no "Awesome Leftist Kingdom of Peace and Hugs". All of history was blood thirsty cults, gangs, demagogues, and pirates fighting over resources. No one back then knew how to deal with scarcity, they just fought one another out of ignorance and irrationality.There isn't anything special about the  cultures that died out. The Westerners were group that won. They brought the first semblance of order to this planet.   

 

   I am not apologizing for being descendant from the victor, especially when I fight for the aspects of that culture that benefit all people. 

 

EDITED ABUNCH: Poorly written. bleh

Edited by Hairnet

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Anything Jane Elliot said during the experiment was an act, probably getting people to think about what they'd do if it was all real. Somehow, acting as an authority figure was enough to get people to accept mistreatment.

I'm not so sure of this. I think you should, if you haven't already, listen to her interview outside of the experiment in that very video. She thinks all white people are conditioned to believe in white superiority and that (I'm paraphrasing): if you graduated high school, and you aren't a racist, it is a miracle. It's determinism, essentially.

 

That is what the premise of the experiment is. And if you listen to interviews outside that video, she even claims that she is still a racist and it will take her whole life to rid herself of it. 

 

 

If you have nothing to learn, you'd be kicked out, meaning you "passed" your test for understanding racism. Or, if you sabotaged the workshop.

 

Is this stated explicitly somewhere by the experimenters, or is this your own interpretation? If it is stated by the experimenters (i.e. those who designed it), then I might have a different view. But, from my view, the people who quit were seen as close-minded white folks - not that they "got it". Listen to the people providing commentary on the experiment as it is going on. To those people that quit or objected - they were called close-minded, that they don't understand racism exists, and that they don't accept that discrimination is going on. You are right, though, the people who did not participate were the ones that did get it. But do you have any evidence that the experiment is intended to fit that interpretation and that the experimenters came to that conclusion, instead of the conclusion that they are "in denial"?

 

 

What we have here is someone who doesn't have the capacity to form their own argument, so they posted this here pretending it was their writing, to use this forum's replies here:

 

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2546236

 

Does that really mean that he doesn't "have the capacity to form [his] own argument"? More likely is that he saw it on a forum (if he is not the poster on the other website) and wanted to see the way Objectivists would respond to such an argument. Granted, he should have noted that in the OP.

Edited by thenelli01

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She rigs the test though, the blue-eyed test is much harder and she gives the brown-eyeds the answer. 

I know she has become a monster and now the test is inherently rigged because the brown eyed people will more likely be minorities and the blue eyed people will most likely be white. It is white guilt inducing. 

 

The original test however, done in a rural all white classroom, had validity as it separated those with brown/green eyes from those with blue eyes, a truly arbitrary division WITHIN that context.  And the results I was referring to (of higher grades) are relevant only to that original test as it says in the complete documentary I posted. 

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That is what the premise of the experiment is. And if you listen to interviews outside that video, she even claims that she is still a racist and it will take her whole life to rid herself of it. 

 

 

 

Maybe because she's always been a hating racist and now she's turning the hate the other way. 

 

It is people like her who use emotions like inherent guilt, who make a debate about genetic and cultural differences and its implications very difficult in this society. 

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No, I know things aren't equal. I just know it isn't my fault. I have had a black DEA officer tell me not to buy weed from black people. Most sex workers avoid black men altogether, often explicitly saying so on their adds. I once gave my black neighbor a ride to the mall, and he stole shirt ties while I was there. Black men robbed my friends. Black men threw a garbage can thew my friend's window.  

 

   (All of these stories involve perpetrators who were different people in different parts of the city.)  

 

   What do people expect? That whites are just going to pretend that certain groups do not tend to be more dangerous than others? That is like asking women to keep just as much of an eye for female rapists as male rapists. 

 

  I know very well that there is something severely wrong. However I have personally never been anything but fair and individualistic with my interactions with everyone no matter what their appearance or background is. I didn't do it because some Social Justice Warrior told me about white privileged. I understand what bias and bigotry are, so I can actually counteract it. 

 

  Look, if minorities and immigrants want to talk about media representation, how they are treated,  and how they can accelerate "the melting pot" then I am game for that. If people want me to feel bad for supporting Israel, getting adrenaline rushes around black men, or for being wealthy while others are poor, they can fuck themselves. 

 

 

    No, all cultures have histories of invasion and domination. Read any history book about anywhere you will find no "Awesome Leftist Kingdom of Peace and Hugs". All of history was blood thirsty cults, gangs, demagogues, and pirates fighting over resources. No one back then knew how to deal with scarcity, they just fought one another out of ignorance and irrationality.There isn't anything special about the  cultures that died out. The Westerners were group that won. They brought the first semblance of order to this planet.   

 

   I am not apologizing for being descendant from the victor, especially when I fight for the aspects of that culture that benefit all people. 

 

EDITED ABUNCH: Poorly written. bleh

It's the same coin, different side isn't it? The immorality of racism-collectivism cuts both ways, and one should dismiss instantly any notion of guilt and personal responsibility for your entire race - on you, individually - that gets laid down by the Left. People, I might add, who have an implicit fear/hatred for other races which their morality cannot cope with. Psychologically for them it seems, they need to 'share the pain' and to feel substantiated with your guilt.

"I have personally been nothing but fair and individualistic in my interactions..."

Exactly. There is however, an apparent dilemma that arises- in my experience: What does one do when one conducts oneself this way uncompromisingly, but then meets individuals who, in fact, WANT to be treated according to a perceived racist-collectivist profile. iow, he or she takes pride in their 'group identity' (whatever this may be) so constantly rejects your individualistic assessment of them?

That happens a lot and I think the only recourse finally, is take them at their word. i.e. to withdraw your individualist approach, and have as little to do with them after. Or else one can sacrifice oneself to a losing cause. You owe nothing to anyone.

Edited by whYNOT

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It's the same coin, different side isn't it? The immorality of racism-collectivism cuts both ways, and one should dismiss instantly any notion of guilt and personal responsibility for your entire race - on you, individually - that gets laid down by the Left. People, I might add, who have an implicit fear/hatred for other races which their morality cannot cope with. Psychologically for them it seems, they need to 'share the pain' and to feel substantiated with your guilt.

"I have personally been nothing but fair and individualistic in my interactions..."

Exactly. There is however, an apparent dilemma that arises- in my experience: What does one do when one conducts oneself this way uncompromisingly, but then meets individuals who, in fact, WANT to be treated according to a perceived racist-collectivist profile. iow, he or she takes pride in their 'group identity' (whatever this may be) so constantly rejects your individualistic assessment of them?

That happens a lot and I think the only recourse finally, is take them at their word. i.e. to withdraw your individualist approach, and have as little to do with them after. Or else one can sacrifice oneself to a losing cause. You owe nothing to anyone.

And why one has to do anything in this regard? If somebody WANT to be treated as a sacrificial animal it is his right. 

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And why one has to do anything in this regard? If somebody WANT to be treated as a sacrificial animal it is his right.

Quite, but lacking omniscience, how does one know this immediately? My point is still to view and treat others as independent beings, til they prove otherwise.

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Quite, but lacking omniscience, how does one know this immediately? My point is still to view and treat others as independent beings, til they prove otherwise.

Eventually, given enough time they always prove themselves this way or another. It's nothing inherently sinister in ethnic or racial identity. A person can identify himself as an Indian, African, Jew etc...The problem only starts when such an identity becomes a standard of value. The contradiction is that all ethnic identities refer to man and exactly that fact such a standard evades. In other words, only man can have ethnic identity, it is a human quality and therefore the standard should be man himself, not one of his attributes. 

Edited by Leonid

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Apparently a failed attempt at ironic humor. I was buttressing your point about ethnicity and it being a human quality and not separable. EG could one define the whiteness as it applies to man, and could it be the same just cause most swans are too. Tried to be too cheeky adding a fallacious humor too

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