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DIM applied to future trends in future world superpower's

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DiscoveryJoy

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The fact that they are the same thing intellectually isn't really my point. I think that's clear.

 

But that one-of-your-favorite lines brings me back to the point, namely that the omnipotent consciousness (I take that to mean Hitler's self-overestimation) will do something, while the incompetent unconsciousness (the Ayatollahs?) will do nothing. That doing something will initially turn into something physical, but later on, too, will end up in nothing. But wouldn't that just (with still no alternative form of that M2 mode in sight) lead to repeating to do something again, until the new created something repeatedly turns into nothing, leading to another attempt at doing something....?

 

Both Communism and Nazism used science to achieve irrational goals (not just perverted irrational science, but also rational one like rocket science, or figuring out chemical means of oil production). Although that science was a product of an I-containing culture that preceded it, it is the M2's ideology that permitted science to be used for the irrational goal and and to be maintained indefinately for the same reason.

 

Then there's the question of how long the something remains something before it turns into nothing again. Doesn't it also depend on resistance from outside (Churchill vs Hitler)?

 

My idea is that one might be able to make a projection of how well different kinds of M2 cultures could do if they were given the same opportunities and under the influence of the same circumstances. The idea is to discover that the religious one would remain on a straight line of zero, while the "secular" one at least would periodically move in cycles between zero and the something. The nature of the circumstances would then determine whether the length of those periods spans just years, decades, or even generations. This would also mean that - given no alternative to M2 in the world - it's worth looking at in what place in the world at least some cycle is currently in its positive state for long enough to still jump onto it - hopefully that cycle lasts for at least some considerable span of one's own lifetime.

 

Actually, the omnipotent consciousness is God and the incompetent unconsciousness would be any version of Collectivism. 

 I can see where you are going.  Yes, religion goes straight there.  My opinion, it’s intellectual honesty in rejecting reason.  Secular M2 would cycle since it uses reason to a point but mis-integrates it.

 

You could point to two historical examples for your later point.  Religion owning the dark ages and medieval period for 1000 years while Rome was several centuries (depending on how you want to break up the pre and post republic eras) while modern statist systems can’t make it out of their own century. 

I think the example is incomplete to be honest since D is only treated as a modern dominant source as Peikoff inevitably laid that at Kant’s feet.  It would be more interesting to really review the D elements on earlier cultures as I suspect you might see the cycling you’re talking about.  

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But my question isn't so much about what happens in the West, but whether the forms of M2 are different in other regions of the world.

My answer is in two forms:

 

1.       Yes, they are the same on a very abstract level when viewed as an epistemological method.  Plato’s cave is Plato’s cave even if someone calls it the “Word of God” or the Shogunate.

2.       No, in practice they will look different at ground zero due to systems of thinking in many regions.   Totalitarianism is totalitarianism but there is a leap from the Asian traditions that could give rise to Imperialism or the Middle East traditions that are giving rise to another Caliphate.  You start tossing in Buddhism and Hinduism and the forms will certainly very.  I’m not familiar enough with them to hazard a guess on particulars.  

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Actually, the omnipotent consciousness is God and the incompetent unconsciousness would be any version of Collectivism. 

 I can see where you are going.  Yes, religion goes straight there.  My opinion, it’s intellectual honesty in rejecting reason.  Secular M2 would cycle since it uses reason to a point but mis-integrates it.

 

You could point to two historical examples for your later point.  Religion owning the dark ages and medieval period for 1000 years while Rome was several centuries (depending on how you want to break up the pre and post republic eras) while modern statist systems can’t make it out of their own century. 

I think the example is incomplete to be honest since D is only treated as a modern dominant source as Peikoff inevitably laid that at Kant’s feet.  It would be more interesting to really review the D elements on earlier cultures as I suspect you might see the cycling you’re talking about.  

 

Ahh, okay, I was focusing on the valuer, not the value concerning the consciousness or unconsciousness.

 

I'm halfway confused with what you're saying:

Yes, Religion owning the dark ages and medieval period for 1000 years.

Rome wasn't even M2, it was M1. So it doesn't count.

Not sure what modern statist systems not surviving their own century would mean, but there's definately more dynamic/cycles within them that keep it above zero than in the dark ages. Plus, knowledge of an alternative mode stood in their way.

Also not sure what you mean by D elements prior to Kant, since there where no. Or where would you see them?

 

Overall, I would focus rather on quality-of-life-span than timespan. Spending 1000 years as a zero is still less than some decades above sealevel. After all, it's an individual's life that needs to be lived, and lived to some extend, not the 1000-year-Reich's life of a Volk.

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My answer is in two forms:

 

1.       Yes, they are the same on a very abstract level when viewed as an epistemological method.  Plato’s cave is Plato’s cave even if someone calls it the “Word of God” or the Shogunate.

2.       No, in practice they will look different at ground zero due to systems of thinking in many regions.   Totalitarianism is totalitarianism but there is a leap from the Asian traditions that could give rise to Imperialism or the Middle East traditions that are giving rise to another Caliphate.  You start tossing in Buddhism and Hinduism and the forms will certainly very.  I’m not familiar enough with them to hazard a guess on particulars.  

 

I've been clearly agreeing to 1 before starting this threat.

 

As for 2, that's where it gets really interesting. Your examples are exclusively religious totalitarianisms. I would like to compare them to self-proclaimed secular ones. Soon-to-be Russia and much of Mainland China are the most obvious ones to me. There is this psychological element in religious M2 that says: "If God is the mover of things, then it dare not be science that creates victory." As opposed to the "Science is the God of Mankind"-mindset of secular M2. This contrast seems to me to be a great barrier to anything like a Caliphate gaining control in the face of Russia or China. Note how Iran cannot even produce its own oil products and has to import most of its weapons, while Russia and China have always known how to produce them.

 

So this is why, following Software Nerd's request, I would take at least most of his list onto my own list for some initial phase, but then move on to

 

1. Russia extends its oil empire to the Middle East, conquering vast areas of land there. Due to its lack of a D element in its philosophy and therefore a maintained ability to assert itself, it has absolutely no problem with first nuking Teheran as a reaction to some Islamist suicide bomber in Moscow that was to counteract the new "Eastern arrogance" in the Middle East. Henceforth, all Islam and any other form of Religion is banned from the entire Middle East by order of Russia (just as it used to be in Russia), i.e. the whole region is to be an atheist society. If not, all Putin or his successor need to point at is what happened to Teheran.

 

2. The U.S., not being able to hold Russia back from what it possible should have better done itself to Teheran when it was still a superpower, is easily conquered and settled by China, who in its desperation for more living space has decided to make the whole North American continent a dominion. Tensions between the Chinese settlers and the new American natives, who had believed they would become the greatest dominionsists of the Kingdom of God themselves but see themselves "dominionized", lead to a ban on Christianity in North America itself. All of Software Nerd's laws are therefore repealed by order of the Chinese colonial government. Much of the other cultural elements, though, that the Chinese always loved about the U.S. when idolizing America and striving to become as powerful as them (Fast Food, Hollywood, etc.), are maintained throughout the country.

 

3. Europe is still stirred up in an internal conflict between Muslim immigrants and old-school Europeans: The process of importing an M2 culture into its own hopeless D2 world has been very time consuming. After all, unlike the U.S. just recently had, Europe doesn't have an M2 culture of its own but needs to import it. This has bought Europe a lot of time: The import has been met with a lot of resistance among the Europeans, with immigration laws being constantly tighthened and loosened.  Nobody knows where Europe is heading. Some say it is the beacon of hope, since it is where Philosophy started. Objectivist scholars have moved to the great centers of London, Paris and Berlin, hoping to spread their alternative in the world's last developed region where free speech still exists.

 

4. Sub-Saharan Africa moves back to a time before it first encountered "the White Man". It never meets the Yellow Man either.

 

5. As for Australia, India, Japan, South America and others: You go make up your mind :unsure:

Edited by DiscoveryJoy
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I see, your looking for secular concretes which is indeed a more interesting though exercise.  I've been reading a lot of history lately so my mind went straight to historical anecdotes which naturally were more religious.  I'll chew on that and see if a more probable M2 secular meltdown would look like.  Like I said before I thing the book is incomplete however since I disagree with the idea D started with Kant but that is a whole separate discussion right now.  

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... ..., following Software Nerd's request, I would take at least most of his list onto my own list for some initial phase, but then move on to

 

1. Russia extends its oil empire to the Middle East,... ...

 

2. The U.S., ... is easily conquered and settled by China,... ...

 

3. Europe is still stirred up in an internal conflict between Muslim immigrants and old-school Europeans... ...

 

4. Sub-Saharan Africa moves back to a time ... ...

Thanks for the reply. I doubt any of the things I listed will come true, and to the extent that there are pro-religion pushes in some of those categories, there will likely be push back in other categories.

You seem to be predicting a religious take-over, which then fails and ends up with a major old-school secular-statist takeover, by Russia and China. I don;t see the first happening, so neither the second.

China and Russia are brittle states. They will probably muddle through, but if I were to bet on internal turmoil bringing them down, versus widespread external aggression from them of the type you fear, the former is the larger probability.

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I see, your looking for secular concretes which is indeed a more interesting though exercise.  I've been reading a lot of history lately so my mind went straight to historical anecdotes which naturally were more religious.  I'll chew on that and see if a more probable M2 secular meltdown would look like.  Like I said before I thing the book is incomplete however since I disagree with the idea D started with Kant but that is a whole separate discussion right now.  

Yes, okay.

 

Well, outside the West, D could very welll have happened. The DIM Hyptothesis only deals with the West. Hmm...but you would have to find a philosophic theory forwarded by someone that explained why D would have been possible before Kant...

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