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CrowEpistemologist

Michigan Governor Signs Anti-Tesla Bill

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This sucks more than anything has sucked in a very long time:

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/gm-urges-michigan-gov-to-sign-anti-tesla-bill-1413912419

 

It's worth noting that Republicans were very much behind this in MI, as well as our Demo bailed-out friends at GM...

 

And while I don't indulge in off-topic rants too often, I'll say in the most objective terms I can that car dealers are lower than the deepest layer of prehistoric frog shit at the bottom of a New Jersey scum swamp. They add absolutely no value to our civilization. They could all go away tomorrow and we'd all be better off. I think of the countless, pointless hours I've spent in car dealers trying to by a fucking car after I walked in and knew exactly what I wanted and had cash for it. You can go to the local jeweler and buy a $30k watch in 5 minutes. A $30k car takes 2 hours. What bullshit. They only get away with this because they are a government-protected monopoly. The sick part is that they seem to know it and enjoy a sick power trip as they hold you there captive waiting for a 80s-vintage printer to ooze out a 15 page "contract" and try to up-sell you floor mats and sealer wax or whatever the high-end equivalent is these days.

 

In other words, I didn't think it was possible to hate car dealers any more than I did before today, but I was wrong.

 

 

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 You can go to the local jeweler and buy a $30k watch in 5 minutes. A $30k car takes 2 hours.

I hadn't thought of it that way before. Nice concretization.

 

Here's the Detroit Free Press version for those not privy to the Wall Street Journal article.

Edited by dream_weaver

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Almost every state has franchise regulations aimed at prohibiting manufacturers from owning any interest in car dealerships. And these regulations have traditionally been mainly driven by Democrats.

 

I don't know what twisted mindset caused you to single out Republicans to blame for having to deal with car dealerships, but it's wrong. They deserve no special blame.

 

They also don't deserve any blame for making sure that the rules, as long as they exist, are enforced without exception. Instead of giving Tesla a special permission slip to ignore the rules, get rid of the rules. I have a feeling you would find a lot more support for that suggestion among Republicans than Democrats.

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It is a good example however when the Republicans here like to pretend they stand for Free Markets.  I understand Crows soapbox - Snider is a piece of work.  

 

But Nicky is right, this has the stank of both parties and here in Michigan they trip over each other on these kind of things.  

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...Snider is a piece of work.  ...

True, against an ideal standard; but, among those available and viable, he's a good Governor.

 

I think Tesla might end up being the case that broke the dealership hold. They're going to court in Mass., and public opinion is changing -- even in Michigan, which has so many big-3 die-hards.

 

Aside: Also, the OP was giving us hyperbole when he said: "This sucks more than anything has sucked in a very long time".

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It is a good example however when the Republicans here like to pretend they stand for Free Markets.  I understand Crows soapbox - Snider is a piece of work.  

 

But Nicky is right, this has the stank of both parties and here in Michigan they trip over each other on these kind of things.  

 

A complete reading of my post above will reveal that I pointed out both parties were in on this--although Republicans coming out in favor of a blatantly socialist law (right out of AS, see Anti-dog-eat-dog) is a little more newsworthy. Only a little though, these days. A common refrain you'll hear from me is that today's Republicans hardly resemble the Repubs from even 20 years ago. They've become the populist party in the USA, taking over that mantel from that Demos before them.

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It is a good example however when the Republicans here like to pretend they stand for Free Markets.  I understand Crows soapbox - Snider is a piece of work.  

 

But Nicky is right, this has the stank of both parties and here in Michigan they trip over each other on these kind of things.  

Republicans (aside from the occasional Libertarian) are pretty clear that they are in favor of a mixed economy, with some very stict regulations, not a free market.

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True, against an ideal standard; but, among those available and viable, he's a good Governor.

 

I think Tesla might end up being the case that broke the dealership hold. They're going to court in Mass., and public opinion is changing -- even in Michigan, which has so many big-3 die-hards.

 

Aside: Also, the OP was giving us hyperbole when he said: "This sucks more than anything has sucked in a very long time".

 

Tesla isn't going to do it alone, and they are going to compromise if they need to. They are small a business with an interest in succeeding, not martyrs. Maybe in some states they will be the proverbial Jane Roe, but in the mean time they are going to do what they need to do, even if it means paying off the looters for a little while.

 

What needs to happen to Snider and the other Repubs who voted for this law is for them to lose the next election because of low voter turnout by their party. That will send the right message.

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although Republicans coming out in favor of a blatantly socialist law (right out of AS, see Anti-dog-eat-dog) is a little more newsworthy. Only a little though, these days.

It's a tiny little wrinkle in franchise regulation. The only reason why you made it into a thread is because it can be spinned to fit your agenda.

 

The reality is that the language in this law simply clarifies laws already on the books (closing a loophole Tesla is using to circumvent the intent of those laws: to prohibit direct sales), and the governor isn't even in favor of that arrangement, he's urging lawmakers to revisit the underlying regulatory model.

 

Also, Tesla's arguments are just as socialist as these regulations. They don't argue against prohibiting GM from selling directly to consumers. On the contrary, they think that's perfectly fine. Instead, they are positioning themselves as the little guy in need of special treatment.

 

Add to that the heavy government subsidies Tesla is on the receiving end of already, and I don't see how someone supposedly in favor of Capitalism would think withholding any more favors from them is socialism.

 

If Tesla instead was attempting to get together with other automakers (there are plenty of automakers, aside from GM, who have no love for the franchise laws), and mount a campaign challenging the regulatory model on its merits, instead of using cheap demagogy to try and dig a little hole just for themselves, I'd have more sympathy for their position.

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What needs to happen to Snider and the other Repubs who voted for this law is for them to lose the next election because of low voter turnout by their party. That will send the right message.

I wonder if you realize that almost every Republican and Democrat in the Michigan house and senate voted for the bill. So, what you're saying boils down to "throw them all out". 

 

While that might be a fine sentiment in the best of all possible worlds, do you think Michigan voters will replace these with a set tat is fundamentally different. Reminds me of the Onion article that went: "Voters Excited To Use Midterms To Put Country Back On Different Wrong Track". 

 

I can understand the hyperbole. Sometimes one has to vent. But, if you step back, this is a tiny, mostly insignificant vote.

Edited by softwareNerd

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"Add to that the heavy government subsidies Tesla is on the receiving end of already, and I don't see how someone supposedly in favor of Capitalism would think withholding any more favors from them is socialism."

 

I thought over a year ago, Tesla fully repaid the government loan it received?

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It's a tiny little wrinkle in franchise regulation. The only reason why you made it into a thread is because it can be spinned to fit your agenda.

 

Wow, that's right out of the governor's official talking points--that the change in the law was one word so... big deal, right?

 

Absolutely incredible to see people who apparently call themselves "objectivists" defending this blatantly socialist move. Incredible.

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CrowEpistemologist,

I have my doubts about some of them too. One of them was disagreeing with me on another thread and posted an argument by Rand to supposedly support their argument. The argument Rand gave fully supported my position. They crossed out some of her words, inserted new words and in doing so changed the meaning to support their own position. They are hard to take seriously sometimes.

Nicky suggests that you have "an agenda", that you are arguing in favour of a business that relies on subsidies, you want a business to get special treatment, your attack on Republicans means you are somehow politically motivated. Pretty aggressive in my view.

Rand once said in an interview that companies backed by Government force are the worst of all economic phenomena. I can sympathise with your view, as a fellow Objectivist. Why should anyone be allowed to prevent Tesla or any other manufacturers from trading in that way.

Edited by Jon Southall

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It's a tiny little wrinkle in franchise regulation. The only reason why you made it into a thread is because it can be spinned to fit your agenda.

 

 

Wow, that's right out of the governor's official talking points--that the change in the law was one word so... big deal, right?

 

Absolutely incredible to see people who apparently call themselves "objectivists" defending this blatantly socialist move. Incredible.

 

I'm confused.  What's the socialist move you have in mind here?  If I understand this correctly, this 'socialist' regulation which is imposed on all auto companies already exists but for some reason Tesla was given an arbitrary exemption.  Does anyone know why one auto company would be singled out for such an exemption?  How is that fair to other car companies who have to endure the existing regulation?  Given what Nicky also wrote in the post that you basically quote mined, it sounds like Michigan's governor would like to at least partially deregulate:

 

The reality is that the language in this law simply clarifies laws already on the books (closing a loophole Tesla is using to circumvent the intent of those laws: to prohibit direct sales), and the governor isn't even in favor of that arrangement, he's urging lawmakers to revisit the underlying regulatory model.

 

Also, Tesla's arguments are just as socialist as these regulations. They don't argue against prohibiting GM from selling directly to consumers. On the contrary, they think that's perfectly fine. Instead, they are positioning themselves as the little guy in need of special treatment.

 

 

Crow, it looks to me like your default position is: Socialism is fine for GM and Ford but not for Tesla.  The next natural question for me to ask is why are you against closing loopholes in existing laws but not in favor of repealing or at least reforming the existing law for the benefit of ALL the car companies?   

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I'm confused.  What's the socialist move you have in mind here?  If I understand this correctly, this 'socialist' regulation which is imposed on all auto companies already exists but for some reason Tesla was given an arbitrary exemption.  Does anyone know why one auto company would be singled out for such an exemption?  How is that fair to other car companies who have to endure the existing regulation?  Given what Nicky also wrote in the post that you basically quote mined, it sounds like Michigan's governor would like to at least partially deregulate:

It's fair to the extent Tesla is the only company that seems to care. Crow didn't say that it is proper - Nicky said that Tesla thinks it's proper. What I'd like to know is if Tesla really did make such an argument, that they need deserve treatment.

 

If the governor wanted to deregulate to ANY extent, he should not have signed the law. Because the law was intended to close loop holes, in a way, it is reaffirming support for the law as it is.

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Nicky suggests that you have "an agenda", that you are arguing in favour of a business that relies on subsidies, you want a business to get special treatment, your attack on Republicans means you are somehow politically motivated. Pretty aggressive in my view.

 

 

The issue is that Crow has a history, one your not aware of, of deliberately doing this with the Republicans, Tea Party, and Fox News, the usual unholy trinity of left wing Comedy Central talking points. 

 

In this case Crow has a point - Here in MI I listen to a lot of Republicans pretend they are for Capitalism then they support something that obviously contradicts that position.  It's pretty frustrating.  Yes - It's chump change in a big picture of crimes against freedom but for an election season it's still an example of hypocrisy that I use as well when the Conservatives I know ask why I (an avowed Capitalist) do not support our "Tough Nerd".  

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True, against an ideal standard; but, among those available and viable, he's a good Governor.

 

I think Tesla might end up being the case that broke the dealership hold. They're going to court in Mass., and public opinion is changing -- even in Michigan, which has so many big-3 die-hards.

 

Aside: Also, the OP was giving us hyperbole when he said: "This sucks more than anything has sucked in a very long time".

 

I agree on what came before and what could be next, but will have to disagree on calling him "good".  

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Republicans (aside from the occasional Libertarian) are pretty clear that they are in favor of a mixed economy, with some very stict regulations, not a free market.

 

I agree.  The issue is a little more basic - Not the elected officials.   I live in West Michigan and many people claim to be Capitalists while not see the inherent contradiction of such policies.  It serves as a good reminder to the people I inevitably debate why I, an avowed Capitalist, do not support the Republicans automatically like they expect.    Your right it's a minor issue compared to many crimes against liberty but timing wise it is a good talking point to try and reach people.  

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I agree on what came before and what could be next, but will have to disagree on calling him "good".

So, you're saying he's not good, but I think you're agreeing that he's above average if you consider those available and viable. (By "viable", I mean that they could plausibly win an election for the office.)

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CrowEpistemologist,

Nicky suggests that you have "an agenda", that you are arguing in favour of a business that relies on subsidies, you want a business to get special treatment, your attack on Republicans means you are somehow politically motivated. Pretty aggressive in my view.

 

 

Oh, ya think? :-)

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Crow, it looks to me like your default position is: Socialism is fine for GM and Ford but not for Tesla.  The next natural question for me to ask is why are you against closing loopholes in existing laws but not in favor of repealing or at least reforming the existing law for the benefit of ALL the car companies?   

 

 

Uh yeah, that's totally what I meant. I'm a socialist, totally. That's why I find this law so ghastly, because I hate free enterprise.

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The funny thing is that they explicitly stated that the reasoning behind this law is to artificially influence the free market. The goal is to preserve the business model and to "protect" it from a competing foreign business being able to come in and sell cars cheaper. I couldn't believe what I was reading or that anyone one in their right mind would actually support such an idea let alone make it into a law. It reminds me of a show I watched recently where these bookies in Boston protected their "market share" via real and non-hidden physical coercion. In reality there is no difference except that in the dealership case the market "protectors" is the government instead of old Boston guys pretending to be thugs.

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The funny thing is that they explicitly stated that the reasoning behind this law is to artificially influence the free market. The goal is to preserve the business model and to "protect" it from a competing foreign business being able to come in and sell cars cheaper. I couldn't believe what I was reading or that anyone one in their right mind would actually support such an idea let alone make it into a law. It reminds me of a show I watched recently where these bookies in Boston protected their "market share" via real and non-hidden physical coercion. In reality there is no difference except that in the dealership case the market "protectors" is the government instead of old Boston guys pretending to be thugs.

 

 

But it was signed into law by a Republican governor, so witness the whitewashing above ^^^^^. The law isn't so bad. It's just a one word change. Tesla is evil too. GM is evil. Saddam Hussein was evil. It rained yesterday in northern Idaho. Nothing to see here. Ignore the Republican behind the green curtain.

 

Can you imagine the outrage among the Objectapublicans here if the same law was signed by a Democrat? The outrage would leap off the screen. Maybe I should have posted as much since they don't pay much much attention to facts anyhow...

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