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The Study of Languages

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Alon

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I thought I'd start a thread for those of us studying ancient languages. We can discuss just about anything from difficulties learning the grammar to philology.

I am currently in my 3rd year of Latin and working on Greek on my own, using Mastronarde's Introduction to Attic Greek.

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I am currently in my 3rd year of Latin and working on Greek on my own, using Mastronarde's Introduction to Attic Greek.

If you are studying Greek on your own, you might consider taking a "distance-learning" course in Greek from one of the major universities. For example, the University of Wisconsin has an excellent Independent Learning program. (The name of the program may have changed.) You can proceed at your own pace, but you also have access to knowledgeable people who can correct your exercises and answer your questions.

This is the way that I, at the age of 50 (10 years ago), began studying Latin, Greek, French (for reading only), and Classical Arabic at the introductory level (first semester of each). Then a little later I took classes in each language or worked with a university tutor.

However, in my experience, the best way to learn is through a properly taught classroom course if one is available.

P. S. -- My knowledge of these languages is only at the basic level -- and shrinking fast. I was a very slow learner, and therefore had to put as much as three times as much study time into each course as other A students.

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I am currently taking a second semester of accelerated Greek. By the end of this year I will begin to read the Classics in their original languages, but have already been able to decypher authors like Aristotle, whose works are collected in original at places like Perseus.

Edited by Free Capitalist
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Praxus,

If you know a Romance language it would help a great deal in studying Latin, but not at all necessary. I learned Latin without knowledge of any other European language.

I should remind you that studying the languages takes a lot of work and dedication, and you will already be hammered down by engineering - so be prepared for a difficult road.

I would recommend beginning with one language first, and I think most would agree with me that it should be Latin. You will find many more similarities to English (because of the French influence) in Latin than in Greek, it doesn't require a new alphabet, and grammatically less challenging (for example, fewer tenses). Not to mention, Greek has a much larger vocabulary and many dialects (Homeric, Attic, and Koine are the most common, yet each one distinct enough to require its own grammar book). Whereas in Latin you merely have the Classical and the Vulgar.

One further note, doing a minor in 2 languages will not give you enough experience in either one. At most universities, the grammar alone is covered in 1.5 to 2 years [correction], and you will require a few intermediate and advanced courses to have a basic mastery of the language. As you can tell, its a far slower process than learning a modern language. If a minor is all you can fit in with your engineering degree, talk to the Classics advisor at your university, he may recommend that you choose one language and focus on it.

Edited by Alon
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I'm going to college to major in mechanical engineering, but what I also wanted to do was to get a minor in the classics (Latin and Greek).

Alon, do you think it is necessary (or prudent) to have some background in foreign language before studying Latin or Greek?

Praxus, what is your reason for wanting to minor in Classics? Do you see it as supporting your central purpose in life, which presumably is mechanical engineering? Would not a minor in a field related to mechanical engineering better support your future career, which is the core of your life to come? An example might be math or physics.

A question for Alon: Doesn't a major or minor in Classics include a substantial amount of history (of the ancient world), as well as studies of ancient Greek and Latin?

If that is true, Praxus, then, based on my own basic-level studies of Greek and Latin, I would strongly recommend following Alon's advice to select one language (and history) to focus on and try to learn that as well as you can within your short stay in a university. You can always take courses in Classics after you get your mechanical engineering degree and begin working as an engineer.

Learning a classical language -- unless you have a proven, strong skill in learning languages -- is very time-consuming. In the Greek, Latin, and Arabic courses I took, on the quarter system, the A students spent 10 to 30 hours per week studying a single language.

One student in my Latin and Greek classes consistently made the highest grades. He was a professor of math who enjoyed learning other languages as a hobby. He studied one language at a time. He invested 10 hours per week to achieve perfect or near-perfect test grades -- but he is the most intelligent person I have ever met. The rest of us spent a lot more time, typically 15 to 30 hours per week. That means about 2 to 4 hours per day, every day of the week.

That is a lot of time when you are also carrying heavy engineering, math, and physics courses.

Edited by BurgessLau
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Alon, do you think it is necessary (or prudent) to have some background in foreign language before studying Latin or Greek?

If you haven't studied or don't know any foreign language, I suggest you get some introduction to a modern Indo-European language. Spanish is readily available and a better choice than French. Russian is a structurally better choice but etymologically more remote (still, if you get to the point of recognising the cognates, it's kinda cool).

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I forgot to add one note in my reply to Praxus:

Get very well acquainted with English grammar. Understand the different parts of speech (ie. nouns, adjectives, prepositions, etc.), syntax, and read an article on inflection. This is not necessary, but it will help you a *great* deal. An excellent companion I had with me through 1st year Latin is "English Grammar for Students of Latin"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/093...0403663-0027967

Here are some links to better understand how inflected languages work:

http://www.dischord.net/astro/decs/index.php

http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/inflecti.html

http://www.hhhh.org/perseant/libellus/aide...e.contents.html (Read section "Words and Their Forms")

BurgessLau:

It depends on the university on how the program is structured. In more traditional universities there will be a clear division between a Classics Major (languages only, with minimal history) and Classical Civilization Major (history, but usually with an option to take a few language credits).

In my case, I am doing a double major in Latin and Classical Civilization (and I will be using 2 credits from the latter to study Greek).

BurgessLau also correctly emphasized the amount of time these languages require. So I would also recommend finding out which grammar books your university uses - some are of such low quality, you may as well work on your own with a good text. If you do like the text, working a few chapters into it in the Summer before classes begin will also help you out.

Lastly, if the going gets tough, do not despair. There are several members of this forum who would gladly help you out, there is also Text Kit which has a great forum, and a chat room I subscribe to, #Archaeology (we have members who study, or have studied, Egyptian, Akkadian, Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek: Homeric, Attic, and Koine, Coptic, Sanskrit, and of course, Latin)

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Actually, I will have to slightly disagree with some of the other posters here, and encourage a minor in the classics. First off, that you're considering making classics part of your education at all is highly commendable (just make sure to combine it with the study of Objectivism, which is invaluable in its own right).

Now as to the issue of a minor, and whether you can or cannot get an adequate education from merely a minor, I think you can. In my experience, the most difficult part of the classics is the language, and the most difficult time when studying the language is the very first semester or first year. If you get the basic grammar and syntax down, and enrich yourself with a decent vocabulary, you can then go on your own and expand your abilities yourself; it's just like English, where we need tutoring in early school, but then can expand our horizons ourselves, as long as we have the motivation.

So, if you will devote at least two semester to Greek and Latin each, then I think the hardest part will be over, and you will be capable of advancing at your own pace. Once the professors explain to you how to pronounce things, and how the rules of the language work, you can build on that yourself. You will not be able to read the most advanced texts, or perceive subtle inflections of a language, after just one year, but you will be able to read most texts, and by reading them expand your proficiency with respect to more difficult material.

That's the progress I am following now, taking Ancient Greek (and Latin next year) even though I just entered graduate school for Computer Science. Even though I've only had one complete semester of Greek so far, I can already decypher some Aristotle, which already helps immensely when reading his clunky and unwieldly English translations.

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Alon, do you think it is necessary (or prudent) to have some background in foreign language before studying Latin or Greek?

Latin is easy-peasy (all the educated people here are going to laugh at me). I took four years of it in high school (would have done five but I graduated early). My vocabulary is rusty as heck but I could pick it up again in no time. Maybe I'll get an untranslated version of De Bello Gallico and have at it when I finally figure out how to go without sleep.

The thing I discovered about learning a foreign language (any foreign language . . . I've studied German, French, and Spanish at varying times) is that it helps you understand how grammar is put together.

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Thanks for the advice; everyone, and I mean it. I am still doing research as to what type of "classics" minor I would like to get and which one's Rutgers (New Brunswick) has. This is to say one more tilted to the historical side or one more tilted to the language side of the classics. The idea of studying solely Roman History and solely the Latin language does sound the most appealing among the options. Luckily however I still have a little over a year to think about it before I go to college.

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Yes but you haven't even read anything about the Greeks yet. And don't forget that Polybius was a Greek. (I talk to Praxus on AIM every now and then)

I have Herodotus but I have to finish Livy's Early History of Rome first, so that will be a good introduction to Greek history:)

Edited by Praxus
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Real men study Greek where it is almost true that there is no such thing as a "regular" verb.
Well, true manly men study Classical Arabic where you need to learn singulars and plurals of nouns, and there are even more verb classes you have to learn (not to mention singular, dual and plural for everything plusnot just 1st, 2nd and 3rd person but also masculine and feminine 2nd and 3rd person to mess with. Although if you want to break a good sweat, go for Sanskrit when it comes to noun declensions.
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Get very well acquainted with English grammar.  Understand the different parts of speech (ie. nouns, adjectives, prepositions, etc.), syntax, and read an article on inflection.  This is not necessary, but it will help you a *great* deal.  An excellent companion I had with me through 1st year Latin is "English Grammar for Students of Latin"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/093...0403663-0027967

Alon, are there any beginning self-study texts for Latin that you would recommend? I've wanted to pick up some knowledge of roots but I've been a bit overwhelmed by the choices. One book I found that looks interesting is "English Words from Latin and Greek Elements". I'm primarily interested in bolstering my understanding of roots to aid in the teaching of vocabulary. (Far be it for a modern education program to actually include something helpful to would-be English teachers.) I'm hesitant to just pick up a dictionary, as it wouldn't necessarily be ordered in a manner conducive to systematic learning.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

I have had 1 year of Latin and i am currently trying to buff up my skills and learn a bit more.

I am trying to set up a Latin reading group at my school along w/ one of the professors...

I will eventually need to learn ancient greek, since my research interests include the fall of the roman empire and the start of the byzantine empire - particularly Justinian...

I think it is best to sharpen up the Latin while working on my masters right now, and then learn greek when i start doctorate work.

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