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dadmonson

What Should A Guy Do If He's Attracted To A Woman?

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I've been reading quite a bit about this and all the conflicting advice is confusing.  It's hard to tell the difference between fiction and fact.  Is there a certain way you can be to maximize your chances at ending up with the girl you like or not?  If so, then what do you suggest?  I want something similar to "pick up artist" advice coming from an O'ist perspective, I guess.

I don't agree that all women are the same but I do believe that there are certain ways you can act that will increase or decrease your chances with a girl.  For instance, I think we can all agree that being nice will increase your chances and being mean or boring will decrease your chances for most women.

If your answer is be a man of self esteem and be masculine...  I would ask you to try to describe how a masculine man of self esteem would be around a woman he was attracted to and what kinds of things would he say?  Also would he approach any random girl he finds in the street that he thinks is physically attractive?  If so, then how would he approach the girl?  What would he say?  Does what he say not even matter? 

Also, how can a man be sexy?

 

If anybody can link me to a book, article, essay to read or a video to watch that would great.

Edited by dadmonson

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I think "pickup artists" are just guys who are naturally charming and have a lot of experience with women, trying to sell snake oil to guys who aren't. But, the fact is, 99% of people aren't supremely charming and experienced...and yet, most of them manage to find partners. Just look at your friends and acquaintances, who have partners: what percentage of them would you say are "pickup artists", who can pick up a girl pretty much at will? I doubt you know more than one guy like that. Everyone else does it without any special skills.

So I think what you should worry about isn't how the pickup artists do it, it's how these other people do it. There are only a couple of things that ACTUALLY WORK, in my experience:

1. Choose who you like: like women you know, and who have similar interests and values to yours...and are therefor more likely to like you back. Don't bother chasing after someone who isn't interested, or is out of your league (for whatever reason).

2. Experience interacting with women. I don't just mean romantic experience, although that is very important: and the only way to really become experienced is to actively seek experience (in other words, don't fixate on one girl you like, but rather "play the field"; I'm not suggesting that you should be with anyone, no matter who they are, but don't say no to women unless you have a good reason to: and "you're not my ideal woman" shouldn't count as a good reason).

However, romantic experience aside, just making female friends is very important. People (including women) hate uncomfortable social interactions, and they will pass up a lot of potentially good things, just to avoid them. When a woman sees someone who is either by themselves, or surrounded by other guys, the main fear they have about talking to that person is that "this is going to be uncomfortable". And, unless you're really, really charming and confident, you're not going to change their mind about it: it's going to end up a self fulfilling prophecy. They're going to avoid being alone with you, at all cost...not because they hate you, but because they don't trust you to be able to avoid uncomfortable moments.

On the other hand, if they see you surrounded by female friends, who are comfortable talking to you, they will not have that fear: they will be open to interacting with you. At that point, you don't need any special skills, you just need to talk to them, same way you would talk to anyone else.

Craig24, JASKN and dadmonson like this

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Yeah man,  people make it so difficult...  All I have to do is get more experience with interacting with girls and that will help me develop into that relaxed, confident, easy-going guy that most girls love!

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One thing I might add to Nicky's advice is: Nobody complains about someone looking nicer/cleaner/better. You're stuck with the body you've got, but you're not stuck with how you keep it up. If you're scraggly, slothful, and smelly, the clean and active version of you who doesn't wear wrinkled clothes is going to attract more girls, increasing your chances further of finding a girl who fits with you.

Also, it's worth noting that you don't need 50, 20, or even 10 girls -- you (or at least most people) just need one.

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On 2016-06-05 at 9:58 AM, Nicky said:

I think "pickup artists" are just guys who are naturally charming and have a lot of experience with women, trying to sell snake oil to guys who aren't. But, the fact is, 99% of people aren't supremely charming and experienced...and yet, most of them manage to find partners. Just look at your friends and acquaintances, who have partners: what percentage of them would you say are "pickup artists", who can pick up a girl pretty much at will? I doubt you know more than one guy like that. Everyone else does it without any special skills.

That's false. Most of the so called pick-up artists are former socially awkward geeks. Now that it's become a business, it's a hodgepodge of sound advice, snake oil and bullshit.

 

On 2016-06-05 at 9:58 AM, Nicky said:

 

Quote

So I think what you should worry about isn't how the pickup artists do it, it's how these other people do it. There are only a couple of things that ACTUALLY WORK, in my experience:

I think something better to look at would be people who have very inspiring and successful relationships. 

 

On 2016-06-05 at 9:58 AM, Nicky said:
Quote

1. Choose who you like: like women you know, and who have similar interests and values to yours...and are therefor more likely to like you back. Don't bother chasing after someone who isn't interested, or is out of your league (for whatever reason).

I would agree except for the "out of your league" part. You will get much farther with some irreverence.

 

 

Edited by Alfa
splitprimary likes this

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On 2016-06-05 at 2:49 AM, dadmonson said:

I don't agree that all women are the same but I do believe that there are certain ways you can act that will increase or decrease your chances with a girl.  For instance, I think we can all agree that being nice will increase your chances and being mean or boring will decrease your chances for most women.[/quote]

No, I don't agree with that. You will get a lot more women by being a douchebag and treating them like dirt. Especially the really good looking ones.

That doesn't mean you should be a douchebag. It just means you should never think that being nice is a good way to get a woman to like you, more than as a friend.

Everyone can be nice. It's easy. Even cows are nice. It doesn't really mean anything, until you put in context of a strong and confident person.

On 2016-06-05 at 2:49 AM, dadmonson said:

If your answer is be a man of self esteem and be masculine...  I would ask you to try to describe how a masculine man of self esteem would be around a woman he was attracted to and what kinds of things would he say?  Also would he approach any random girl he finds in the street that he thinks is physically attractive?  If so, then how would he approach the girl?  What would he say?  Does what he say not even matter? 

Also, how can a man be sexy?

First off, be proud of who you are. Learn to not give a shit what others think. As long as you're happy with yourself, that's all that matters.

Don't ever lie, cheat, hide or apologize for who you are. Be open and honest - let them take it or leave it.

Should you approach every random girl you find attractive? Well, would you want to? Personally, I wouldn't have time for much else than chasing girls I find attractive. However, it's good to have the balls to do it when you really want to approach someone.

What to say? See, this is really difficult to teach. You need to find things that are true to who you are. Look around for tips and pick out a few that you like, just outside your comfort zone, and go for it. With time you'll learn to wing it.

Personally I just say any stupid thing that comes to mind, try to crash and burn and then somehow make it work. While someone else might get slapped I get them to laugh.

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On 2016-06-07 at 1:47 AM, JASKN said:

Also, it's worth noting that you don't need 50, 20, or even 10 girls -- you (or at least most people) just need one.

For what? I'd personally be happy with just my future wife, but in the meantime... I think a couple of thousand would do.

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So the o'ist answer to how to attract an attractive woman is basically self improvement?

Well, I've just finished reading the 6 pillars of self esteem and I must say it's a damn good book...  I will reread it again and again and practice the 6 pillars of self esteem until I've internalized everything.  I'm very serious about this because I love my life.

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Well, depends if by Objectivist answer you mean in terms of what it takes to be a valuable person, or if you mean in terms of masculinity/femininity in Objectivist terms. For the second, it's the first type of answer, plus asserting yourself to be an object of a woman's hero worship and being uniquely masculine. I don't think the second one is good advice and think Oism is wrong about masculinity/feminity, but it might be good if you are certain it works for your psychology from experience.

The thing is, to be attractive to anyone takes self-esteem and self-improvement. Regardless of your sexuality and gender and preferences, this is true if you want high-quality relationships of any type. Based on your posts before, sometimes it sounds like you are unsure about your own sense of self, dadmonson. Be yourself, as Alfa was saying, but who is it you want to be? Don't reread Six Pillars, you need to be able to identify and work towards what you want to -be-. I'm glad the book helps, just remember to figure out what is unique to you, the specifics to you.

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People only know what I choose to show them buddy.  

I think I now know the real reason Ayn and Nathan brokeup and it's not even that deep... It is probably because they each kept on trying to analyze each other and they both got tired of being analyzed.

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In my experience, pick up artists are usually determinists who think you can get any woman to sleep with you by making the right noises at them. (I'm exaggerating, but only barely.)

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I have a few more questions:

1. What role does biology and evolution play in masculinity and femininity?

2. Do you think biology and evolution have an influence on what women generally find attractive? 

3. If there is a thread that talks about this can you please link it? 

4. ...  I don't think good looks are as helpful to men as it is to women when it comes to attracting the opposite sex. For instance, I think good looks would get a woman farther sexually (or even relationship-wise) with a man than vice versa. Do you think so too?  If so, why do you think that is?  If you think biology and/or evolution influences this... do you think that is some variant of determinism?

This is a generalization, I know, and has it's limits.  I , for one, wouldn't have sex with a girl without knowing much about her... even if she looked like the girl of my dreams... my hottest celebrity crush.

6. I've seen attractive woman with less attractive males and vice versa.  Do you think it is different when a beautiful woman likes an ugly man than when a good looking man likes an ugly woman?  Why or why not?

 

I know you guys aren't mind readers (people are attracted to different things for various reasons) so some of these questions might seem impossible, but, if you can try to generalize a little then maybe you could answer. 

I think an Objectivist psychologist really should write a book on this because many people seem to disagree with Ayn on masculinity and femininity for some reason. 

 

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On 2016-06-25 at 7:22 AM, dadmonson said:

So the o'ist answer to how to attract an attractive woman is basically self improvement?

Well, I've just finished reading the 6 pillars of self esteem and I must say it's a damn good book...  I will reread it again and again and practice the 6 pillars of self esteem until I've internalized everything.  I'm very serious about this because I love my life.

I don't really give a rats ass what the Objectivist answer is, but yes... if you don't like the results you've been getting you need to make some improvements.

A friend of mine used to have the saying "be that guy...". Meaning basically that if you want to be someone who attracts people around you, then "be that guy...". Be that guy who takes initiative for parties or other events (depending on what you want, of course). Be that guy who has a lot going on in his life. Be that guy who's so excited by his own life that others want to partake.

I think you get the idea.

Of course, if you prefer cozy little Ayn Rand bookclubs instead of sex, drugs and rock 'n roll... well, then that's what you should aim for. This is not meant to push you to be a certain way, but to take control and form the life you want around you.

Now, that last bit is very important. You won't get anywhere by reading books and being stuck in your own head. I agree that Nathaniel Brandens book is good, but it's better pushed to the back of your head for now. What you need to do first is take action. Start by identifying little things you could do better and go from there. Get some skin in the game and learn from real life.

By the way, for you or anyone else reading this. Don't make the mistake of thinking that there's something wrong with you because you might find this difficult. I don't know where you're at, but I know a lot of guys base their self esteem on their success with women.

Well, that's bullshit. Don't ever think that. I don't care if you're an introverted computer geek who prefers books before socializing with other people. That's me in a nutshell, although i've somehow become much more social over the years.

That shit doesn't matter. What matters is connecting with people that are right for YOU. If you find that difficult you are probably doing something wrong, but that just means you haven't figured everything out yet. Don't let that get to your self esteem.

It actually reminds me of an old friend of mine. The sterotypical computer programmer. Fiercly intelligent, but very little social skills. UNIX-beard, ugly glasses, and he probably buys new clothes once every decade.

The thing is, despite those flaws i've seen him attract many women. At first. He's different, he doesn't hide it and he's quite clear about who he is. That even means being quite abrasive with women whe find stupid (not really rude, but abrasive).

I've seen many women drawn to him just because of that. I've even tried to point that out for him, but he doesn't believe it. He stubbornly thinks it's his intelligence that puts them off, while it's actually what attract them.

Problem is, you cannot just only talk about your interests. That girl may find your stories of World of Warcraft exciting, but it's a good idea to find out what stuff gets her excited as well. Then you should not assume that because you've found some common ground, things you both like, that it means attraction. It could just as well mean friendship. And please, don't get angry and bitter because of it.

In such cases it really helps to see when a woman is attractaded, as opposed to friendly. But please avoid taking that as a kick to your ego.

---

Personally, many years ago I realized that I was stuck in a dead end. I was basically only working for tomorrow while all my friends had moved and gone on with their lives. Pretty miserable situation, really. So I quit my job and went looking for better things to do. Tried, failed, tried some more and after a lot of hard work and failures things started to go well...

At first I consumed pretty much every material I could get on seduction and self improvement. But, there's nothing like just putting yourself out there.

One of the things I did was go out to bars and clubs. That's pretty awkward when you're alone, but that's also where you meet new people. And after a while I did. Some of them old friends and aquaintances, others complete strangers.

I actually started to have some real fun. One of the craziest nights started when I was just being nice and friendly. This guy came up to me and asked for help finding his friend. It ended with tons of booze, naked girls and... well, I decided to leave discreetly when the guys started sniffing cocaine off the girls tits. Not really my cup of tea. I don't like heavy drugs and I certainly would not have liked being there if the cops showed up.

Through work I met a lot of women. Some friends, and others more than friends. Having female friends is a great help if you want to meet more women, and become more than friendly. I also find women to be a refreshing contrast to men. After having worked in a male dominated environment, especially with the kind of men who can barely read or write, you truly start to appreciate the company of women more (yeah, like any man doesn't appreciate the company of women...).

Somehow this has led to a reputation of being a ladies man. I've never bothered to deny it. I haven't confirmed it either. Truth is i've been around, and I don't take responsibility for what others think, but I don't sleep with everything with a pair of tits. I'm too lazy for that. It's too much work for something that will probably turn out to be a disappointment. That may work for a 20-something guy full of hormones, and I would even encourage to get some experience, but once you get older and you've done it a few times you start to appreciate quality.

Some of the new friends i've made encouraged me to start travel more. I used to be too caught up in other things before, so I hadn't traveled much. Now i've driven through large parts of western europe, and some of eastern europe. That's among the very best experiences i've had. I don't mean taking a flight and living on a sunny beach somwhere. I mean taking a car, just driving away, and seeing what's around the next corner. I've been lost in east Berlin, and communist ghettos in Poland. I've driven through the Alps and visited small italian villages in the Appenines. Seeing the world, when you're far from home and a completely foreign country, really gives some perspective.

It's also intersting to meet women from other countries. I've hooked up with women in every country i've been to, and some women from countries i've never visited. That's also something that might give you pause for thought.

For example, eastern european women tend to have som real macho ideals about men. Meeting that, when you come from the most feminist country in the world - Sweden - is quite interesting. Sadly many of them also seem to have trouble finding men who are not drunks and beat them.

German women tend to be quite forward. And friggin kinky. Granted, I haven't been to the US yet, but I bet if you come from there you'd be shocked. This is the country where they openly advertise brothels and you can buy sex toys at every gas station.

Italian women... they are just classy, charming and completely wonderful. There's still some macho bullshit going on there, but still... I love italian women. And Polish women.

Anyhow, that's not really the point here. I can make generalizations of women from different countries all day, but the point is when you travel around you see these differences more clearly.

Now, these are just some changes i've made to my life. I've gone from a dead end to making real progress, getting a successful carrer, making new friends, meeting women and so on and so forth.

When it comes to women, i've also learned to "flirt". I put that in scare quotes because flirting is not really what I do. Well, I do it a lot, but when it comes to laying down a prey it's killer instinct that matters. It's like a gut feeling you develop, and when you get it you just go for it.

That's also why it's difficult to teach. If I were to say "just grap her and kiss her" you'd probably get slapped and kicked in the nuts. Granted, sometimes you have to gamble, but... it's better to have some feel for these things.

Okay, so a very long winded post.  What i'm basically trying to say with all this verbiage is that you have to get out there, learn the ropes, fail and try again. Having all these great ideas of self esteem in your head is great. They will help you. Ultimately though, you must get out there and try your wings.

By the way, this is irregardless of any wise shit you might get from some pick-up artist. I'm all for looking into the stuff that's out there. If you're critical and don't swallow all of the bullshit there are actually some good things you can learn. Just keep in mind that many of the guys doing this are not quite right in the head. I think Neil Strauss 'The Game' exposes that side quite well (he is very charismatic and has some good tips though).

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8 hours ago, dadmonson said:

I have a few more questions:

1. What role does biology and evolution play in masculinity and femininity?[/quote]

I don't know. Unless you've done some real studies and you're and expert on the subject, you don't know either.

I think it's easy to see that women and men are different. Different hormones, different brain structures etc. That's fine. I don't think it's even that controversial. But, to answer what exact role biology plays is a field reserved only for the real experts.

You and I may have theories based on some research, but to keep it honest and true... we don't really know shit. It's too complicated for laymen.

8 hours ago, dadmonson said:

2. Do you think biology and evolution have an influence on what women generally find attractive? [/quote]

That seems very much in line with the theory of evolution, doesn't it? I mean, somewhere down the line our great ancestor made choices based on certain criteria, and thats how the human race has evolved.

One must be very carfeull though to not look at it the wrong way around. What we must first ask is; "how are people today?". Once we've cleared that, we can start looking at why. I'm sure the answer can be found in the theory of evolution. However, saying that our great ancestor were a certain way and that, therefore, we are a certain way, is rationalistic.

So, if we want to find what women find attractive we need to conduct realiable studies as to what women actually find attractive. Then we can ask ourselves why. That answer is most likely found in evolution, considering it's the mating behaviours of our great anscestors that have made up our biology.

8 hours ago, dadmonson said:

4. ...  I don't think good looks are as helpful to men as it is to women when it comes to attracting the opposite sex. For instance, I think good looks would get a woman farther sexually (or even relationship-wise) with a man than vice versa. Do you think so too?  If so, why do you think that is?  If you think biology and/or evolution influences this... do you think that is some variant of determinism?

This is a generalization, I know, and has it's limits.  I , for one, wouldn't have sex with a girl without knowing much about her... even if she looked like the girl of my dreams... my hottest celebrity crush.[/quote]

No, I think the most attractive trait for men is strength and for women beauty. This is not to say that neither trait will work for both genders, only that they are primary for sexual attraction.

To give you a concrete example of what I mean. One of my coworkers is a cocksure lesiban. I like her, we get along well, and she has a very nice body with a very beautiful face - big eyes, high cheekbones etc. For a man though, there's nothing attractive about her at all. I mean, if we were to partake in a cock swinging contest i'm sure she'd win. Everything about her - body language, speech, clothing, hair cut etc - screams "male".

She's a damn strong woman though. Tough as nails. A real trucker.

In contrast, i'm seeing this woman who's incredibly beautiful and feminine. Everything about her sreams "woman". She just also happens to be tough as nails, but in a completely different way. She's not the kind you would ever dream to run over - she'll give you fucking hell. But, if you know how to conquer her she'll purr like a little kitten.

As far as men looking good... well, i've been on both sides of that fence. It's never really made a difference. What's made a difference are my actions. As long as you're confident about your body you'll be fine. It will certainly help to look good naked, but it's secondary.

8 hours ago, dadmonson said:

6. I've seen attractive woman with less attractive males and vice versa.  Do you think it is different when a beautiful woman likes an ugly man than when a good looking man likes an ugly woman?  Why or why not?

 

I know you guys aren't mind readers (people are attracted to different things for various reasons) so some of these questions might seem impossible, but, if you can try to generalize a little then maybe you could answer. 

I think an Objectivist psychologist really should write a book on this because many people seem to disagree with Ayn on masculinity and femininity for some reason. 

 

Yes, it's different. The good looking gal with an ugly guy is most likely with an alpha male. The good looking guy doesn't know his value.

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1. Almost none. Yes, hormones exist but... there is not much actual psychological difference between men and women caused by anything like brain structure or hormones. A lot of it is a social dynamic.

2. I agree with Alfa.

3. About which? There are a lot of questions here.

4 and 6. This is a social artifact. It doesn't really say anything but that it's hard to see attraction as a "looks" thing, so it'd look strange that looks don't seem to match. To me, my reaction to that requires no special explanation. That isn't to say it's -wrong- to use and enjoy these social dynamics, but it'd be wrong to say they are as caused by biological or psychological differences inherent to men or women. Furthermore, I suspect your sexuality may affect which social dynamics you work well with. I don't mean gay/straight/bisexual, I mean sexuality as the sex you prefer and things like how you express your sexual interests and behaviors to others and yourself.

"I think an Objectivist psychologist really should write a book on this because many people seem to disagree with Ayn on masculinity and femininity for some reason.  "
Because Rand is wrong about it.

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