Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum
gregory kalian

White Supremacist Protest Violence

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

A federal judge ruled the "supremacists" had a right to protest.  It seems the reason violence occurred is because "counter protesters" gathered in an effort to block the lawful expression of free speech. Notwithstanding the murderous act of one individual who drove his vehicle into the crowd, is there a reasonable basis to blame the supremacists for the violence?

I understand their position is objectionable, however the true value of the right to free speech is for the protection of speech some may consider objectionable.

How is the action of the counter protesters different from recent incidents of students and others shouting down campus  speakers and denying them their right to speak?  I have not heard a single sole blame the counter protesters. If the supremacists had been left unmolested to merrily or perhaps nastily carry out their demonstration and go home, would any of this have happened?

Many people believe abortion is murder. They consider abortion to be an abhorrent and evil act against the most innocent and defenseless. In a word, some consider abortion to be objectionable.  If a "woman's march" or other "choice" protest were met by an armed and angry mob bent on the disruption of their free expression and clashes occurred, would we blame the freedom of choice people for perpetrating the violence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does appear, at least from a cursory glance at accounts, that this is a somewhat correct sequence of events:

1. VA government wants to take down government statue of government employee in government park.

2. Nazis organize to protest, apply for necessary permits to do so.

3. Permits are rejected, Nazis, with help of ACLU take government to court and win.

4. Nazis march along preplanned route to park.

5. Counter protests organized with mostly angry normal people with a healthy contingent of Commies (BLM, Antifa, etc.)

6. Commies confront Nazis along their route, trying to physically block them, disrupt them, fight them ("punch a nazi"), pepper spray them, throw things, etc. and tried to block them from rallying around the statue, as they were legally permitted to do, and violence ensues.

Again, we must also mention the Nazi motorist that appears to have intentionally ran over a bunch of Commies.

Even if BLM and Antifa are at fault for the street fights, and the Nazis wanted a peaceful protest, they still do want to kill all the Jews and for the government to forcefully remove all non-whites.

In the words of Ludwig von Mises, "You're all a bunch of socialists."

Edited by 2046

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

I lived in Chicago during this one: http://www.jta.org/2013/06/20/news-opinion/the-telegraph/nazis-marching-through-skokie

When I was a young man, I demonstrated quite a bit, particularly against taxes (April 15 at the main post office each year) and against reinstatement of the draft registration. A friend recalls I joined the counter-demonstration against the Nazis linked above. I don't actually recall that particular counter-march, but I do recall that on all such occasions all sorts of other political factions will try to join in and get mileage for their own political cause(s). In my era of demonstrations ('70s and '80s), I witnessed no violence from the pro- or counter-side.

The most important thing about the events in Charlottesville this past weekend was that a young man (of a fascist, racist political persuasion) drove his car into a bunch of our citizens who were opposed to his views. And the American President stated no specific condemnation of that mayhem and murder, which was a heinous act an order of magnitude more wicked than any other violence there.

The public statues of this sort ARE going to come down when all the legal process has been completed. They are today and since they were erected principally monuments proclaiming white supremacy. I live in Lynchburg, about an hour south of Charlottesville. Around here I encourage people to go over to the Museum of the Confederacy just down the road, over at Appomattox. It was completed pretty recently, it is truly informative, and is accessible to folks of all sorts of educational levels or age. The old statues, such as this one of Lee, are unnecessary for historical education and awareness.

.

 

Edited by Boydstun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boydstun said:

 ...The old statues, such as this one of Lee, are unnecessary for historical education and awareness.

Boydstun,

I would disagree with this statement, only because more people of the United States, (and for that matter, the world) need to understand the complexity of Americas' past where race and slavery are involved. Specifically, Robert E. Lee was both a slave owner and aware of the evils of slavery, (or so I've read). That being said, there was a period shortly after the war, when brandishing the Confederate flag was illegal. That period passed into an period of reconciliation, rather than reconstruction, a period when the healing nation embraced the Southern white man for his valor, and the federal government abandoned the cause of leading the freedmen to full citizenship. Too many Euro-Americans are completely ignorant to the injustice of the Jim Crow Era, or they minimize the long-term effects. The erection of statues to Confederate war "heroes" and the revival of their flag were errors made out of a near-sighted attempt to pander to Southern nationalism, in spite of the obvious nature of the lost-cause of the South, i.e. the defense of race-based slavery as an institution.

We are now in an era that may be understood only from a distance, just as those pre-Civil Rights years are better understood now. It would be right that those monuments, even the ugliest reminders of the KKK, and other relics of the post-Civil War Era be put on display in a museum, where they can be studied in their proper context, rather than as celebrated symbols of honor. And the Jim Crow Era might be better understood with its complexities.

I honestly don't know the exact details of the "white-nationalist" protesters, but one thing is clear. That is, this nation, with all of the progress made toward liberty and justice, is degenerating deeper into tribalism. If these legally licensed demonstrator were allowed to make their statements without interference, we might better understand their grievances, or perhaps we would not have had such a tragic escalation of violence. Most likely, many would have been offended, but would anyone have been physically hurt? We'll never  know. I expect this won't be the last such incident of this sort. Obviously, more restraint of personal feelings, a better understanding of history, and a moderated forum would help to create a more rational climate for debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A federal judge ruled the "supremacists" had a right to protest.  It seems the reason violence occurred is because "counter protesters" gathered in an effort to block the lawful expression of free speech. Notwithstanding the murderous act of one individual who drove his vehicle into the crowd, is there a reasonable basis to blame the supremacists for the violence?

----------------------

Not for the fistfights, no. That was the local authorities' fault, for allowing (and at times encouraging) a counter-protest clearly designed to shut down the right wing march. And it is a frightening thing...not just for white supremacists, for everyone who believes in free speech. These leftist groups have been doing the same thing to everyone they disagree with.

The authorities have the responsibility to protect people who choose to exercise their right to protest. That means that, once the supremacists obtained permission to hold this event, the counter-protesters should've been kept away for the day. They could've protested the next day, or some place else.

But the supremacists are to "blame" for the murder. The person who committed that attack was influenced by their ideology. They're not legally responsible, of course (not unless new info comes to light, suggesting that he was acting on orders), but they are morally responsible.

Edited by Nicky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a separate note, it also strikes me as extremely stupid to drive dangerous ideologies underground. That's when they turn from obnoxious loudmouths into violent insurgents. And this bunch might just prove better equipped for mass killing than the Islamists. So I really wouldn't poke the bear. The guy who drove his car into the lefty agitators was just some idiot who flunked basic training. Someone who didn't would go about mass murder a lot more efficiently.

Just leave them alone, let them protest and march, expose and shame politicians like Trump who show any sympathy for their cause, and that will be that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is disgusting and baseless lie that Trump had anything to do with what happened.  What in fact did happen was an orchestated news event in which the Governor of Virginia deliberately had the protestors driven into the counterprotestors to create headline grabbing violence which would then be blamed on "Trump supporters" by the overwhelmingly Democratic party voting mass media.  I and my entire family are Trump supporters and have nothing to do with neo-Nazis or the KKK.  Its all propaganda and lies.   

I am a straight white male of a certain age and unsympathetic to socialism or identity politics.  For this I am hated, as are my instruments and representives in Congress and the Presidency.   Neither Trump nor I have a single act or act of omission to be ashamed of.  Anyone who claims otherwise can fuck right off.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grames, I don't understand your point. I don't know anyone who said Trump had to do with what happened. The most I've seen in this instance is that Trump has not done much to combat or stand against the KKK and neo-Nazis (as in he's weak and at best just doesn't cafe). I did see those groups conflated as "Trump supporters" before, but not for the Unite the Right rally. What does the Governor's actions matter anyway? He's not responsible for people choosing to be violent, or the attack by car. He's responsible for poor law enforcement if anything that lead to escalation. And the result is that neo-Nazis and the KKK are blamed. I don't see this strategic manipulation to blame Trump that you're talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a good summary paraphrased from a topic title at reddit /The_Donald:

Black people who were never slaves are fighting white people who were never actual Nazis over a Confederate statue erected by racist Jim Crow democrats because Democrats can't stand their own history anymore and somehow it's Trumps fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Grames said:

It is disgusting and baseless lie that Trump had anything to do with what happened.  What in fact did happen was an orchestated news event in which the Governor of Virginia deliberately had the protestors driven into the counterprotestors to create headline grabbing violence which would then be blamed on "Trump supporters" by the overwhelmingly Democratic party voting mass media.  I and my entire family are Trump supporters and have nothing to do with neo-Nazis or the KKK.  Its all propaganda and lies.   

I am a straight white male of a certain age and unsympathetic to socialism or identity politics.  For this I am hated, as are my instruments and representives in Congress and the Presidency.   Neither Trump nor I have a single act or act of omission to be ashamed of.  Anyone who claims otherwise can fuck right off.  

What about all the innocent immigrants he's deporting? You have nothing to do with that either?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nicky said:

What about all the innocent immigrants he's deporting? You have nothing to do with that either?

 

The value of wide-open borders can be debated, but Trump (as head of the Executive Branch of government) is enforcing the laws passed by Congress.  It's funny that in Mexico it is a felony to enter that country illegally.  Mexico has seen a large decline in the number of people crossing illegally into Mexico along its southern border since the US began enforcing immigration laws - and Mexico happy about it (although they won't admit it).  And in Canada, Trudeau recently had to do some major backpedaling due to the flood of illegal immigrants that have begun pouring into Canada over the summer after he "invited" them to do so.  Trudeau is now saying that they too will have to obey Canada's immigration laws.  Are both Mexico and Canada wrong to deport illegal immigrants too?

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/338561-trudeau-tweets-not-the-answer-to-canadas-refugee-issues

Edit:  Most of the illegal immigrants being rounded up in the US by ICE already have deportation orders issued by the Courts.

Edited by New Buddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Grames said:

It is disgusting and baseless lie that Trump had anything to do with what happened.

I don't know whether this thread is the place for a referendum on all-things-Trump, but do you think it's accurate to say that Trump had nothing to do with what happened in Charlottesville? Of course he had nothing to do with it directly, but I believe that Trump has played a role in helping to create the atmosphere in which these kinds of events are becoming more and more commonplace.

I believe that under his administration, folks on the "alt-right" (and here I'm specifically referring to neo-Nazi/KKK types; I understand that the alt-right may be a larger umbrella than just those sorts) have felt increasingly emboldened -- in part due to his ambivalence in condemning them or disavowing their support.

11 hours ago, Grames said:

I and my entire family are Trump supporters and have nothing to do with neo-Nazis or the KKK.  Its all propaganda and lies.

Of course you and your family have nothing to do with those assholes. And I know that there are plenty of folks on the left who say that anyone who supports Trump is either a Nazi or as good as one -- which is ridiculous and deplorable (and helping to contribute to the heinous "Antifa" sort of response).

But I also find it noteworthy that the neo-Nazis and KKK seem to find strength and comfort in Trump's presidency. Or I mean, if that's propaganda and lies as well, I'm ready to be corrected on it. Yet at the moment, that's how it seems to me.

11 hours ago, Grames said:

I am a straight white male of a certain age and unsympathetic to socialism or identity politics.  For this I am hated, as are my instruments and representives in Congress and the Presidency.

Same here, on all counts. I get it.

11 hours ago, Grames said:

Neither Trump nor I have a single act or act of omission to be ashamed of.  Anyone who claims otherwise can fuck right off.  

You answer to your own conscience, and I wouldn't presume otherwise. But Trump? I think he has plenty to be ashamed of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, DonAthos said:

I don't know whether this thread is the place for a referendum on all-things-Trump, but do you think it's accurate to say that Trump had nothing to do with what happened in Charlottesville? Of course he had nothing to do with it directly, but I believe that Trump has played a role in helping to create the atmosphere in which these kinds of events are becoming more and more commonplace.

Don,

When Trump was in Poland awhile back he gave a speech about national sovereignty and the importance of Western values - and he was roundly condemned by the Left and the MSM as giving a "racist" speech.

The Left, under Obama, has so thoroughly embraced identity politics that the ideas of Locke, Paine, Jefferson, Rand, etc. are now seen as being "white" ideas.  If you adhere to them, then you are a de facto racist.  And to be fair to Hillary (someone I find truly despicable) she too was horrified by how far the Left took the election (read Shattered) and she was unable to bring it back to the center (largely due to her lack of character).

There is nothing that Trump can say that the MSM and the far-Left won't interpret as being racists, Islamaphobic, anti-gay/lesbian/transgender/Mexican, etc., etc., etc.

Rand completely saw this coming....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, New Buddha said:

It's funny that in Mexico it is a felony to enter that country illegally.

It's not funny, it's sad. It is ironic that someone on an Oist forum would think that "they do it too" is a defense for the government violating individual rights. Still not funny, though...not all irony is funny.

Quote

The value of wide-open borders can be debated

 

Wide open borders are foolish. But leaving innocent economic migrants alone is very different from having "wide open borders".

So, if you wish to continue the conversation, I suggest you drop this childish straw man.

Edited by Nicky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nicky said:

It's not funny, it's sad. It is ironic that someone on an Oist forum would think that "they do it too" is a defense for the government violating individual rights. Still not funny, though...not all irony is funny.

It's "ironic" that you focus on the word "funny" and not the idea.  I'm pointing out the "irony" that many on the Left won't "condemn" Mexico and Canada for doing for years what the US is starting to do.  Are you capable of understanding such irony?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

It's "ironic" that you focus on the word "funny" and not the idea.  I'm pointing out the "irony" that many on the Left won't "condemn" Mexico and Canada for doing for years what the US is starting to do.  Are you capable of understanding such irony?

I am. I'm not on "the Left". You know that, we've both been posting on this board for years. So why are you talking past me, and to "the Left", while quoting one of my posts?

If you address me, talk to ME. When have I refused to condemn Mexico and Canada for being scumbags to immigrants?

Edited by Nicky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nicky said:

I am. I'm not on "the Left". You know that

I know that you are not.  I was replying to this:

2 hours ago, Nicky said:

What about all the innocent immigrants he's deporting?

Trump is enforcing the US immigration laws and court orders - nothing more.  This is exactly what the Executive Branch is tasked with doing.  I'm perfectly willing to discuss the value of completely wide-open borders, but until Congress changes the laws, there is nothing wrong with what he is doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dream_weaver said:

Just following orders, Sir! (Couldn't resist.)

Maybe you should have.  Do you think laws should be selectively enforced by the Executive and Judicial Branches of Government?

Edited by New Buddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nicky said:

What about all the innocent immigrants he's deporting? You have nothing to do with that either?

Not innocent.  And he's doing it with my explicit approval, encouragement, and vote.  Citizens of a country have a right to defend themselves from trespassers and saboteurs.   "But Grames you don't know that they are trespassers and saboteurs".  Yes I do because evading this country's means of lawfully admitting immigrants makes them criminals trespassers and deliberately dodging the naturalization process and the oath of allegiance makes them presumed not-loyal to the present government/the Constitution.   No one knows if they are loyal to any government at all (e.g. MS-13 gang members) but they aren't loyal to this one.

Edited by Grames
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

The Left, under Obama, has so thoroughly embraced identity politics that the ideas of Locke, Paine, Jefferson, Rand, etc. are now seen as being "white" ideas. 

Not really - depends if you mean progressive liberals, or antifa. Antifa just hates capitalism and about class politics, like Communists. The whiteness doesn't matter a lot. To a progressive liberal, identity politics is primary, so whiteness and all that matters a lot. Anyway, sure, we should condemn those people for their collectivism and those who hate Western values in principle. Don's point, looks to me that Trump is helping neo-Nazis and all the more toxic elements of the alt-right with his weak initial response to the rally. Trump isn't any more blameless than Obama.

What do you think Unite the Right was about? Identity politics revolving around whiteness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair though, what this has to do with blaming Trump, is vis-a-vis the political narrative in the fallout of the event. Just like after a presidential debate is over, no matter what happened and what the facts are, all participants and their spokesmen will retire to the "spin room" to try and mold perception in their favor.

As we are in the midst of a kulturkampf, the characterization of the events during and after the rally is being used to score political punches in the wake of the event, I agree with Grames on that at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, New Buddha said:

Maybe you should have.  Do you think laws should be selectively enforced by the Executive and Judicial Branches of Government?

No. I'd like to be able to objectively identify which laws should be endorsed by the respective branches of government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×