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Should you be friends with a woman you want, but can’t have?

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If you have a strong attraction to someone, should you accept a friendship if you believe she’s unattainable, and the only alternative is to delete her from your life? Does the strength of your feelings for her matter?

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What do you mean unattainable? I mean, it's not like relationships are about acquiring people, like acquiring cars or houses. You don't need to worry about getting her. A better question is to ask whether she is a good fit for you anyway. But just because she might be a bad fit romantically doesn't mean she's a bad fit as a friend. I think this is part of what Nicky is saying. 

I asked what you mean by unattainable because some people think in terms of people being out of their league. This might mean you don't think you're the best person you can be, or there are a lot of flaws in yourself that you see that you think should be improved upon. That would make sense. If that's all it was, all you need to do is improve yourself.

But maybe you mean that you think you're too low on the social pecking order. This isn't so great because you'd be devaluing yourself about something that has nothing to do with whether you're a good match. If that mattered to her, then you need to reevaluate whether she's someone you want to even pursue in the first place.

Edited by Eiuol

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42 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

What do you mean unattainable? I mean, it's not like relationships are about acquiring people, like acquiring cars or houses. You don't need to worry about getting her. A better question is to ask whether she is a good fit for you anyway. But just because she might be a bad fit romantically doesn't mean she's a bad fit as a friend. I think this is part of what Nicky is saying. 

I asked what you mean by unattainable because some people think in terms of people being out of their league. This might mean you don't think you're the best person you can be, or there are a lot of flaws in yourself that you see that you think should be improved upon. That would make sense. If that's all it was, all you need to do is improve yourself.

But maybe you mean that you think you're too low on the social pecking order. This isn't so great because you'd be devaluing yourself about something that has nothing to do with whether you're a good match. If that mattered to her, then you need to reevaluate whether she's someone you want to even pursue in the first place.

You don’t have infinite capacity for self-improvement. A woman could be out of your league for genetic reasons. But regardless, suppose the one you want is just not interested—should you try to stay friends?

Edited by iflyboats

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I recall a specific instance of the "out of league" syndrome.  I was at a gathering at the home of a man who owned the franchise on several fast food restaurants and had a very nice house.  It was not an Objectivist gathering and I don't know what his philosophical views were.  I think he was better off financially than most, if not all, of the rest of us at that gathering.  (i was working in IT and was certainly not poor.)  He mentioned a woman he was attracted to but didn't think he could have a relationship with because she was much richer.  He said "I'm not crying poverty, but I'm not in her league."  Her "league", if I understood correctly,  included the ability to make a trip to Europe impulsively.

Suppose I had known such a woman and been interested in her romantically.  The financial difference would have been even greater.  According to his reasoning, I should have dismissed any thought of attempting to get a relationship going.  That doesn't really follow.  It is of course possible to speculate about possible problems related to the financial difference, and even without that there's always the chance a relationship won't work out.  But that doesn't mean one shouldn't try.

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13 hours ago, iflyboats said:

If you have a strong attraction to someone, should you accept a friendship if you believe she’s unattainable, and the only alternative is to delete her from your life? Does the strength of your feelings for her matter?

Nicky has an excellent point about not betraying your values because of pain.  IF you can get to a point where she can be only a friend to you it might be worth the effort..  and the risk.

The other side of the coin is the RISK... the risk of betraying your potential values because of a false hope which keeps you "stuck" in a fabricated present.  In this sense the strength of the feelings DO matter. 

IF your "want" for the person rises to the level of a deep and strong romantic love, constantly being with the person could lead to its enduring indefinitely, and could lead to holding onto an irrational hope that the two of you could one day be compatible.  The conundrum arises that IF you are deeply "in love" with a person, so that in your heart you cannot but feel she IS the only one for you, you risk betraying your possible attainment of an actual two way fulfilling love relationship with someone else.  An emotion as strong and deep as love, although informed by your values and as all emotions ultimately by the way you think, is not something you can think your way directly out of or into.

As pure speculation, such a relationship of friendship might be maintained with a great deal of work, not simply by putting up with pain, but by constant directed conscious effort.  I am no psychiatrist, but one part of love is that selfish knowledge that the person wants you, not only finds you a value, but also that person's highest value which crosses into a deep attraction for you.  Part of your romantic love is a response to that.  Even though painful, remind yourself of the fact that the relationship IS one of friendship, and THAT she sees you ONLY as a friend or like a "brother".  Remind yourself, no matter how strongly you feel for her, that what she feels for you is different, and that it LACKS an element of romantic love. When you see a stranger you are physically attracted to, remind yourself that she might also be the kind of person you could admire, and value, and love deeply if you got to know her... you don't know... maybe THAT one could be the one, maybe THAT one could be the one...

Perhaps the thoughts will translate into an emotional distancing which will enable you to have ONLY emotions appropriate to a friendship with this woman, and open you up to possibility of deep romantic love for another.

IF you cannot distance yourself emotionally AND if your feeling and emotions prevent you from finding mutual deep love with someone, then you are risking one of the greatest values a human can attain.  Fulfilling romantic love.

 

 

 

 

Edited by StrictlyLogical

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56 minutes ago, StrictlyLogical said:

IF your "want" for the person rises to the level of a deep and strong romantic love, constantly being with the person could lead to its enduring indefinitely, and could lead to holding onto an irrational hope that the two of you could one day be compatible.  The conundrum arises that IF you are deeply "in love" with a person, so that in your heart you cannot but feel she IS the only one for you, you risk betraying your possible attainment of an actual two way fulfilling love relationship with someone else.  An emotion as strong and deep as love, although informed by your values and as all emotions ultimately by the way you think, is not something you can think your way directly out of or into. 

You can think your way into or out of anything...as long as you are aware of what your actual values are, and are willing to give them up if you recognize them as irrational. (I'm saying actual values to differentiate from our purported values: the values that actually drive our emotions and actions, not the ones we would like to have drive us).

For instance, if there is an emotion that is too strong to overcome, then whatever value is causing you to have that emotion needs to be identified and reconsidered. In this case, the main suspect would be this notion, that became part of the fabric of western culture in the past 100 years or so, that love, especially romantic love, is the goal of our existence, and when we feel it, we must sacrifice everything to fulfill it...to the point that we celebrate a piece of literature as insanely irrational as Romeo and Juliet, and the thousands of equally insane copies it spawned, all preaching the primacy of an emotion over reason, and even life itself (as an aside, it's worth noting that some think Romeo and Juliet is meant to be a parody...because its message might just be too insane for Shakespeare to have meant it).

Teenagers and young adults are especially vulnerable to this message, because it is being shoved down their throats constantly in popular culture aimed at them. And it's very wrong, and very dangerous, precisely because it's such a strong emotion. The stronger the emotion that drives us, the more dangerous it is, and the more important it is to put an end to it, by giving up the notion that the emotion is an important, once in a lifetime event we must hang onto and pursue to the ends of the world. 

As an aside, there is nothing in Objectivism to condone this message. Just because Rand thought highly of love doesn't mean she placed it above reason or selfishness, in any way. If you ever want to have a fulfilling romantic relationship, you need to first figure out the correct place for love in your hierarchy of values...and make sure it's actually THERE (through the very simple method of repeated trial and failure...and to do that, once again: you must learn to also value the pain that comes with failure).

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40 minutes ago, iflyboats said:

The woman you want having a superior mind.

That's a very broad and vague way to think about it. There is a lot more to intelligence in general than raw thinking power. Imagine you were a pretty good chef at a restaurant, but not particularly great at academics or school. Then imagine she were some PhD student in physics. Is her mind overall better than yours? Not really. To be a good chef, it requires different types of thinking and skills and practice. There is nothing that would make you inferior as a person. You would just be a different person than her. The quality of your mind is more about being a virtuous person.

If she doesn't want to be with you romantically, it doesn't mean you're out of her league. You could be, if she cared about things like that, but you wouldn't want a relationship with someone who thought that. On the other hand, maybe she does value someone in academics like her, someone who can talk about those complex and abstract subjects important to her. You probably admire this about her. But the truth is, physics isn't that important to you. You don't like to read books about it. You prefer to think about other subjects. While the fantasy of being with her romantically makes you very happy, your values don't really match up. You might want to blame being not smart enough, or there's something inferior about you, but there's no reason to do that. If your values don't match enough, it won't matter.

There's more to any relationship, friendship or otherwise, than what you imagine could happen. What you imagine isn't how things are. If you find out the future you hope for isn't going to happen, that doesn't destroy the value you have now. If you get value out of her company, don't abandon that. She does something good for your life. Why be vindictive and cut her out just because she didn't give you what you wanted? 

If she isn't interested, the easiest thing to do is focus on the value she provides today. Nicky offers great advice - just take the short-term pain. You'll be rewarded in the long run, with emotional maturity for getting through it and possibly  lifetime friendship.

Edited by Eiuol

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7 hours ago, Eiuol said:

That's a very broad and vague way to think about it. There is a lot more to intelligence in general than raw thinking power. Imagine you were a pretty good chef at a restaurant, but not particularly great at academics or school. Then imagine she were some PhD student in physics. Is her mind overall better than yours? Not really. To be a good chef, it requires different types of thinking and skills and practice. There is nothing that would make you inferior as a person. You would just be a different person than her. The quality of your mind is more about being a virtuous person.

If she doesn't want to be with you romantically, it doesn't mean you're out of her league. You could be, if she cared about things like that, but you wouldn't want a relationship with someone who thought that. On the other hand, maybe she does value someone in academics like her, someone who can talk about those complex and abstract subjects important to her. You probably admire this about her. But the truth is, physics isn't that important to you. You don't like to read books about it. You prefer to think about other subjects. While the fantasy of being with her romantically makes you very happy, your values don't really match up. You might want to blame being not smart enough, or there's something inferior about you, but there's no reason to do that. If your values don't match enough, it won't matter.

There's more to any relationship, friendship or otherwise, than what you imagine could happen. What you imagine isn't how things are. If you find out the future you hope for isn't going to happen, that doesn't destroy the value you have now. If you get value out of her company, don't abandon that. She does something good for your life. Why be vindictive and cut her out just because she didn't give you what you wanted? 

If she isn't interested, the easiest thing to do is focus on the value she provides today. Nicky offers great advice - just take the short-term pain. You'll be rewarded in the long run, with emotional maturity for getting through it and possibly  lifetime friendship.

I realize that intelligence is multifaceted, and that different individuals are good st different things, but some people clearly have talents far superior to those of others. Suppose the woman you want works on the same field and and rises faster and goes farther despite making less effort, and that she’s also wittier and a better conversationalist. She makes more, has more fiends, and attracts more interest from the opposite sex. Assuming you understand that these differences are genetic, would you be wrong to conclude that this woman is “out of your league?” Is it irrational to desire her in the first place?

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1 hour ago, iflyboats said:

 Assuming you understand that these differences are genetic, would you be wrong to conclude that this woman is “out of your league?” Is it irrational to desire her in the first place?

Those differences aren't genetic. You can get better at all of those things. At best they are partially genetic, but still in large part under your control.

But there's a few more things you're assuming. What does it matter if she's better at you at some things? If she's better at you at some things, why does that mean she cares? Having more friends doesn't make her a better person; having more suitors doesn't mean they see her mind as valuable; being wittier doesn't mean your sense of humor is boring to her. If she goes further than you, how does that matter for romantic compatibility? 

It's the whole wrong look at it. Think in terms of what values can be mutually admired and enjoyed. It's not as if you need to gain points to earn the girl, as if she's an achievement you unlock. You don't need to defeat her. You just need to be valuable. It's not about your real-life stats, it's about finding people to grow with.

What counts as if you are in the same league morally speaking. 

You make me think of this song:

Notice how he isn't angry or even upset. He's feeling bad about what might have been. It's the Platonic fantasy ("more than just a dream") that got him down, not the actual girl. Whoever he's thinking of, makes him feel very happy. I don't think he literally means he can't get the girl - he means he can't get the girl that doesn't even exist. It's a song basically about what happens when you get what I call the "out of my league" syndrome. 

 

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Last night my “friend” texted in our group text that she was considering a sexual encounter with someone else after some drinks. I don’t know whether she went through with it. I’ve don’t think I’ve ever felt pain like this, it’s the absolute worst feeling ever! A month ago we were going on dates and she was seriously talking about making me her conquest and ending her 14-month celibacy streak with me, then went cold on me the following week and has been treating me like a friend since. I've always been timid around her and stopped following up when she started showing that she was losing interest. Should I circle around one last time and ask her if she’s still interested? In case you can't tell, I have absolutely zero experience with women and she is the first person I've dated. 

Edited by iflyboats

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Question along the same lines. Can a woman be attracted to/fall in love with an intellectually inferior man? Wasn’t Ayn Rand much more intellectually accomplished than Frank? How does that work if the woman is the stronger one?

Edited by iflyboats

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12 hours ago, iflyboats said:

my “friend” texted in our group text that she was considering a sexual encounter with someone else after some drinks ... month ago we were going on dates and she was seriously talking about making me her conquest and ending her 14-month celibacy streak with me, then went cold on me the following week and has been treating me like a friend since.

it's quite possible that the text was meant specifically for you to see, to elicit some reaction, but i don't have enough info to tell what the objective might be.
if you analyze the time leading up to her "going cold" there may be clues about what triggered the sudden change, and a solid guess about that could help interpret signals now.

7 hours ago, iflyboats said:

Can a woman be attracted to/fall in love with an intellectually inferior man? Wasn’t Ayn Rand much more intellectually accomplished than Frank? How does that work if the woman is the stronger one?

it depends on her hierarchy of values, not just on her actual traits. as intelligent and analytical as Rand was, she was an artist at heart and Frank had the aesthetic/stylistic flair she prized. she talked about his sense of life, and he was a major source of inspiration for her writing.
it doesn't have to be intellect specifically that attraction is based on. the woman would just have to be able to look up to / admire the man in some dimension that's important to her.

i thought the point was explained rather well on this blog:

Quote

“A man's attractiveness to women hinges on her perception of his personal strength. A man could manifest his strength in many ways: he could be financially powerful (rich), physically powerful (tall or strong), socially powerful (confident), intellectually powerful (smart or witty), morally powerful (good), politically powerful (highly positioned), etc.; but unless you respect and admire him for his strength, however it is manifested, you will not be attracted to him. …

As mentioned above, there are different types of power. While intelligence is undeniably important, what ultimately matters is that the man and woman both value the same manifestation(s) of power and that the man has the advantage in that regard - whether or not this includes intelligence specifically. So, for example, maybe he and she both care most about physical power. Even though she is smarter, she will still respect and admire him for his height and physical strength; and he will be proud to fill the role as the one who is physically stronger in the relationship. In most instances, couples will put various levels of value on some combination of the different manifestations of power rather than all of it on one of them.”

http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/01/what-men-think-about-your-intelligence.html

 

Edited by splitprimary

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15 hours ago, iflyboats said:

Last night my “friend” texted in our group text that she was considering a sexual encounter with someone else after some drinks. I don’t know whether she went through with it. I’ve don’t think I’ve ever felt pain like this, it’s the absolute worst feeling ever! A month ago we were going on dates and she was seriously talking about making me her conquest and ending her 14-month celibacy streak with me, then went cold on me the following week and has been treating me like a friend since. I've always been timid around her and stopped following up when she started showing that she was losing interest. Should I circle around one last time and ask her if she’s still interested? In case you can't tell, I have absolutely zero experience with women and she is the first person I've dated.  

I think you have a problem, but it's not what you think. Your problem isn't inexperience or shyness. Women don't mind that. What they mind is jealousy and insecurity. You are NOT in a relationship with anyone. You shouldn't act like you are, and while we're at it, you should also try not to feel like you are. Your jealousy is out of place. You're not in pain because of any kind of lost love (she's clearly not lost to you), you're in pain because of misplaced jealousy.

Here are some things you shouldn't do:

1. Do not tell her about your jealousy or any kind of pain she is causing you. It's not her problem, not her responsibility to "not hurt you", etc. Don't even entertain the thought that it's her fault in any way, no matter how many texts she sends, and what's in them. It's her right to share her life with her friends, and it is not your right to blame her for it. It's also her right to test you, if that's what she was doing (though I doubt it), and see if you can handle the idea that she doesn't belong to you. If you ask her out, be casual about it, don't pressure her or become emotional.

2. Do not act on this pain in any way. Don't try to distract yourself with alcohol or any other high, substance induced or emotional, either. That's a way to validate it, too. You're in pain, just accept the fact and do nothing else, because it shouldn't be your goal to live a pailess life.

3. Do not for a second think that jealousy is an unavoidable part of love. It's not. It's a symptom of a sick culture that misrepresents love, not a natural consequence of human nature.

If you never give an unwanted emotion any validation, and take full personal responsibility for having it (never blame anyone else for causing it), that is the way to fight it, and make it subside and eventually go away.

And, in general, don't act like you're in a monogamous relationship, in any way. She clearly hasn't rejected you romantically (the way you, kinda annoyingly I must say, claimed in the OP), and there's no reason to give up on her, but you're not in any kind of relationship with her. So do what she does: keep your options open, go on dates with whoever will go out with you, be open about it with your friends, accept their support if offered, etc.

Prove to yourself, and to everyone else, that you are able to keep your emotions grounded in reality: she's not the center of your existence in reality, therefor she shouldn't be the center of your emotional life, either. That groundedness will take you further with attractive, confident women (who have to deal with obsessive, possessive "admirers" on a regular basis) than anything else you can do.

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7 hours ago, splitprimary said:

it depends on her hierarchy of values, not just on her actual traits. as intelligent and analytical as Rand was, she was an artist at heart and Frank had the aesthetic/stylistic flair she prized. she talked about his sense of life, and he was a major source of inspiration for her writing.

The blog post you linked is basically expanding on something like Rand's stated view on romance, she didn't have healthy romantic relationships, and I think her marriage contradicted those views. Using her love life as an example is very messy, and many things went wrong. I don't think any of us could say why she loved him (only she could really know), but we can be sure it wasn't because of a manifestation of power. I think you're right about her view about her husband. 

I like the idea that intellect is extremely important! I like to think of it as one of the most important features of your personality. We just need to remember that there are many ways to have intellect besides the analytical kind. 

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17 hours ago, Nicky said:

I think you have a problem, but it's not what you think. Your problem isn't inexperience or shyness. Women don't mind that. What they mind is jealousy and insecurity. You are NOT in a relationship with anyone. You shouldn't act like you are, and while we're at it, you should also try not to feel like you are. Your jealousy is out of place. You're not in pain because of any kind of lost love (she's clearly not lost to you), you're in pain because of misplaced jealousy.

Here are some things you shouldn't do:

1. Do not tell her about your jealousy or any kind of pain she is causing you. It's not her problem, not her responsibility to "not hurt you", etc. Don't even entertain the thought that it's her fault in any way, no matter how many texts she sends, and what's in them. It's her right to share her life with her friends, and it is not your right to blame her for it. It's also her right to test you, if that's what she was doing (though I doubt it), and see if you can handle the idea that she doesn't belong to you. If you ask her out, be casual about it, don't pressure her or become emotional.

2. Do not act on this pain in any way. Don't try to distract yourself with alcohol or any other high, substance induced or emotional, either. That's a way to validate it, too. You're in pain, just accept the fact and do nothing else, because it shouldn't be your goal to live a pailess life.

3. Do not for a second think that jealousy is an unavoidable part of love. It's not. It's a symptom of a sick culture that misrepresents love, not a natural consequence of human nature.

If you never give an unwanted emotion any validation, and take full personal responsibility for having it (never blame anyone else for causing it), that is the way to fight it, and make it subside and eventually go away.

And, in general, don't act like you're in a monogamous relationship, in any way. She clearly hasn't rejected you romantically (the way you, kinda annoyingly I must say, claimed in the OP), and there's no reason to give up on her, but you're not in any kind of relationship with her. So do what she does: keep your options open, go on dates with whoever will go out with you, be open about it with your friends, accept their support if offered, etc.

Prove to yourself, and to everyone else, that you are able to keep your emotions grounded in reality: she's not the center of your existence in reality, therefor she shouldn't be the center of your emotional life, either. That groundedness will take you further with attractive, confident women (who have to deal with obsessive, possessive "admirers" on a regular basis) than anything else you can do.

I agree about not blaming her, but can you elaborate on how this jealousy is misplaced? It could have been me that she spent the weekend with but instead it was likely someone else over me because of some errors I made last month that caused her to lose interest. It was cool that this attractive, intelligent woman had been abstinent for over a year and at one point I was the one she wanted to end that with, but instead it ended up being someone else. Regret and missed opportunity. I've had a crush on her for months but let the opportunity slip. I am not saying any of it is her fault, but how are these feelings misplaced?

Edited by iflyboats

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On 8/6/2018 at 7:15 AM, iflyboats said:

I agree about not blaming her, but can you elaborate on how this jealousy is misplaced? It could have been me that she spent the weekend with but instead it was likely someone else over me because of some errors I made last month that caused her to lose interest. It was cool that this attractive, intelligent woman had been abstinent for over a year and at one point I was the one she wanted to end that with, but instead it ended up being someone else. Regret and missed opportunity. I've had a crush on her for months but let the opportunity slip. I am not saying any of it is her fault, but how are these feelings misplaced?

Sorry, but this whole thing stopped making sense to me. On the one hand, you are describing a situation where a friend of yours, who you have a crush on, and who's shown interest in you herself, is either having a quick fling with someone else, or is in the early stages of a relationship with someone else. Either way, not a relationship that's guaranteed, or even likely, to last.

On the other hand, you're talking about a girl who is "unattainable", "out of your league", and regret and missed opportunity, all suggesting that there's no chance you could ever date her.

Those two stories can't both be true. It's one or the other. Which is it?

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5 hours ago, Nicky said:

Sorry, but this whole thing stopped making sense to me. On the one hand, you are describing a situation where a friend of yours, who you have a crush on, and who's shown interest in you herself, is either having a quick fling with someone else, or is in the early stages of a relationship with someone else. Either way, not a relationship that's guaranteed, or even likely, to last.

On the other hand, you're talking about a girl who is "unattainable", "out of your league", and regret and missed opportunity, all suggesting that there's no chance you could ever date her.

Those two stories can't both be true. It's one or the other. Which is it?

In my judgment, I’ve always felt like she should be out of my league. She’s smarter, wittier, much more experienced, a better conversationalist, and is stronger at work (we used to work together). I never understood why she liked me, but she actually did initiate everything and had to work on me for weeks to get me to go out with her. I was always way too timid around her, which I think is half the reason she lost interest. There was a clear offer of sex on the table a month ago, I didn’t have the balls to do anything, a week later she went cold on me, and since then I’ve acted like I’m okay with just being platonic friends. For the past few weeks she’s relegated me to being a member of her crew of former co-workers, whom she always hangs out with as a group which she leads. I can’t stand it. I have no interest in any of them except her. I still have no confirmation of anything but in the last week there’s been a change in her pattern consistent with her being with someone else after work on nights she doesn’t have her daughter. I believe she probably is, and yes it is very painful.

Edited by iflyboats

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She expressed interest.  You played hard to get and then acted disinterested.  Anyone would likely have dropped you under those circumstances.  She then went looking for someone who was interested and not playing games.  (Yes, I know that's not how you see it.  But it is likely how she saw it.)   What else would you expect?  If you want her, stop playing games with yourself about being "not in her league" and get your ass onto the playing field.  Otherwise, get out of the situation and stop making yourself miserable.

Remember: You and you alone are responsible for your choices.  And if you want a consequence, you and you alone are responsible for enacting the cause of your desired consequence.

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18 hours ago, iflyboats said:

In my judgment, I’ve always felt like she should be out of my league. She’s smarter, wittier, much more experienced, a better conversationalist, and is stronger at work (we used to work together). I never understood why she liked me.

These are usually three very different things:

1. the way person A is

2. the way person A sees him or her self

3. the way another person sees person A

That's why it's very important to always be open to the possibility that you are wrong, about pretty much everything, except logically and scientifically proven truths.

Odds are, she doesn't see herself as particularly witty or smart, or you as particularly dull or stupid. It's even possible that she isn't wittier or smarter than you, you just think so. As for the other three, you're probably right there, but those things don't really matter. Who cares who's stronger at work, has more sexual experience, or talks a lot? (women talk more than men, so they're better at it...whatever) It's silly to think any of that matters.

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18 hours ago, iflyboats said:

she actually did initiate everything and had to work on me for weeks to get me to go out with her... There was a clear offer of sex on the table a month ago, I didn’t do anything

2 hours ago, Invictus2017 said:

She expressed interest. You played hard to get and then acted disinterested.

Agreed! She put herself out there, if you did nothing with that it would rightly be interpreted as rejection. Makes sense for her to "go cold" and it's understandable she has a bit of an edge now making it clear to you that she's moved on, since she's probably feeling hurt herself.

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Would it be immoral to drive past her house to see if her car is there or if anyone elese’s is? She lives on s public road, so the act wouldn’t be illegal assuming I didn’t do it in a way that was harrassing, and it could provide valid clues about her relationship status; however, if she knew, she’d undoubtedly be creeped out, so I think it would be immoral. 

Edited by iflyboats

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