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iflyboats

Should you be friends with a woman you want, but can’t have?

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I think that's the right conclusion.

But there might be a simple solution to resolving your feelings. If you realize now that it was a major mistake to not take her up on her offers and overtures, you can admit that. You can tell her that you know now it was a mistake, and now that you lost the opportunity, you feel bad about it. If you resolve things maturely, at the very least, you might actually feel okay being her friend. Who knows. Maybe she will appreciate the honesty.

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12 hours ago, iflyboats said:

Would it be immoral to drive past her house to see if her car is there or if anyone elese’s is? She lives on s public road, so the act wouldn’t be illegal assuming I didn’t do it in a way that was harrassing, and it could provide valid clues about her relationship status; however, if she knew, she’d undoubtedly be creeped out, so I think it would be immoral. 

It's immoral to pointlessly prolong your own suffering.  How she feels and who she is seeing is her business, not yours.

You really have just two choices here, assuming you respect yourself and you respect her: Either you talk to her and explain your prior stupidity or you absolutely abandon any possibility of a relationship beyond friendship.  Anything else is a self-destructive compromise.  If you can do neither, you have doomed yourself (and maybe her, depending on how screwed up you let yourself become) to wholly unnecessary misery.

If you do the former, the worst that'll happen, beyond the embarrassment of admitting your own foolishness, is that she'll tell you that you had your chance and blew it.  But even then, you'll at least know where you stand. 

If you do the latter, you can then begin self-policing the part of you that insists on the impossible and thereby hasten your psychological recovery from your mistake.  I'd recommend, in this case, staying away from her until you've managed that recovery, but I wouldn't say that it is essential to do so.

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12 hours ago, iflyboats said:

Would it be immoral to drive past her house to see if her car is there or if anyone elese’s is? ... it could provide valid clues about her relationship status; however, if she knew, she’d undoubtedly be creeped out, so I think it would be immoral. 

it's not a matter of it being immoral, it's just not a good way to handle it. from what we know about her (assertiveness, then texting the group about her potential romantic activity), she would be perfectly willing to tell you how serious the new interest is, all you have to do is ask. driving around would be wasting more time to obtain far less reliable info. and what it would show her if she did find out is that you'd rather try to collect information on her secretly than openly have a conversation, which doesn't reflect well on your ability to be in a relationship! should she want someone who would talk to her about their feelings and concerns and ask her questions directly, or someone who would snoop around and make assumptions? which would you prefer in a partner? if being with her is your goal then you want to work on being that kind of person, and these actions wouldn't be consistent with it, which is why it isn't feeling right to you.

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i agree with Eioul here, if you think there could have been confusion and maybe even bitterness on her part, the best approach would be to let her know that you -are- interested in her, and didn't mean to come across otherwise. if you're able to explain it to us, you should be telling her instead! she's the one you want the relationship with. even ask her out, because it's not clear that the opportunity is lost yet, even if there is someone else in the picture now too. think about how much worse you'd feel later if you found out you'd called it and given up too soon, when you still did have a shot.

my only caution is to really look at why you hesitated before and make sure before you get her involved again that the relationship moving forward is actually something you want and would be ready for. it's easy to idealize something after the fact when the possibility is far away, but your reaction at the time may be more reliable. don't assume that you just flaked out arbitrarily, maybe there was a reason, maybe it wasn't a mistake.

even if it was, if you're not comfortable with her and feel "out of your league" because of her personality or experience, it's not going to work out. you should deal with that first. find out where it's coming from and get to a place where you can be confident that you're a good choice for her. then help her see that too.

so your first step is to think.
1- make sure that she is actually what you want
2- make sure you really believe that you would be good for her (convince yourself)
3- let her know both of those things! (convince her)

if you've done this and she isn't interested, you won't feel the way that you do right now, because you'll know you did everything you could, and you'll think she's the one making the mistake.

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I don't have any comments on this particular situation, but I'd like to note how much the advice and evaluations being given altered once more details were provided. I've seen this happen before on this forum - someone provides an initial description of what they think is going on in their personal life, advice is given, and then the advice changes once more context is provided.

In the future, I would suggest a "fact-gathering" period prior to the giving of advice on personal situations, in order to make sure that the advice being offered is accurate and helpful. This would consist of asking plenty of questions and clarifying any unclear aspects of the situation.

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this was not a personal question, the OP asks in the abstract. and he poses a new abstract question after the initial discussion on that one.

even still, Eioul did start by asking questions! the other posts were good general advice. i don't see anywhere where someone has changed what they've said, even though when it finally did become personal (13 posts down the thread!), it clashed somewhat with the topic (as Nicky complained, not actually being an instance where the woman is known to be "unattainable").

a lot of interesting issues have been discussed here: the validity of "league" thinking, whether avoidance of pain should be a motivating factor in decisions, how much inferiority/superiority in certain aspects counts in a relationship pairing, the possibility of self-perception being off, the error involved in jealously vs taking responsibility for one's own emotions and outcomes, the importance of communication..

exactly what part of this do you wish had been avoided?

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I'm going to limit myself to a single idea, which I suggest you repeat over and over to yourself like a mantra: If you don't get this area of your life handled, sorted, managed and mastered, you are in for a very unhappy life.

You'll not only make yourself miserable, but crazy as well. From what you've written here, it seems like you're well on the way. You talk about driving past this girl's house to check on the cars parked outside? I don't know if that's immoral per se, but it sure is loony as hell.

You come across in your posts as very young, totally inexperienced (you admit as much), and utterly, absolutely naïve about women and relationships. This is not a crime, but also it's not a state you want to remain in for long.

While you're crushing on and obsessing over this one particular girl, the reality is she is of no significance whatsoever. You think (or rather, you feel) that she is someone extremely important, when in fact she is nobody, irrelevant to the big picture.

The important person here is YOU. You need to focus on improving yourself, bettering yourself, and above all gaining a mature sense of emotional perspective, particularly where sexual emotions are involved. In short, you need to make yourself into the kind of man who doesn't get irrationally obsessed with girls like this.

Now that I've beaten you up, let me say there isn't a man reading your posts who can't sympathize with you, at least a little. Fortunately for some of us, your story serves as a reminder of our distant past. For others, the pain you describe is like an experience out of the movie Groundhog Day, something to be revisited and re-encountered again and again.

The unfortunate reality is that most men never get this area of their lives handled, sorted, managed and mastered. They never really figure out sex. To the average man, sex — and its attendant features, such as attraction, masculinity and femininity, etc. — is always a bit of a mystery, which is why so many men make such humiliating wrecks of their sexual lives.

Edited by KevinD

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Not sure if this was the right decision, but today I asked her to remove me from the group text. Doing so will sever my main connection to her since she doesn’t talk to me 1-1 anymore. I hadn’t texted in there in a week, and people started asking where I was, so I had to take a stand. I lied every time I said I wanted to be friends.

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The context is different because the person in that podcast has a crush on a girl who had no romantic interest. In your context, it's a girl who did show interest, but you chose to do nothing. The advice there kind of presumes that you acted on your feelings and were honest about them, enough so to figure out what the other person thinks. 

Are you looking to talk about something specific? Or are you looking for advice? 

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On 8/11/2018 at 3:09 PM, Eiuol said:

The context is different because the person in that podcast has a crush on a girl who had no romantic interest. In your context, it's a girl who did show interest, but you chose to do nothing. The advice there kind of presumes that you acted on your feelings and were honest about them, enough so to figure out what the other person thinks. 

Are you looking to talk about something specific? Or are you looking for advice? 

In my case the girl did show interest at one point, but I think she’s since lost it and that I am now in the podcast person’s position. I don’t know how to approach  finding out. My strategy was going to be to stay away from her for at least a few weeks before contacting her again (we’re now at one week with no contact). I also need to get my life together and get a job after being laid off. But once I’m able to do that, how would I approach her?

“What happened before?”

”Are you still interested?”

“Are you with anyone presently?”

 

Edited by iflyboats

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The questions you suggest are wildly inappropriate.  A better idea:

Presumably, you know something of the activities she likes. Research those activities to find one that you and she can do as a couple.  Suggest an outing.  (My ex was way into arts and crafts.  Our first "date" was at a crafts fair.  She had a blast; I merely tolerated it.  But it showed, in action, my interest in her as a person.)

Failing that, there's the old standby: "Would you like to do lunch (or dinner)?"

It's as simple as that.  How she responds will tell you all that you need to know.

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20 hours ago, iflyboats said:

But once I’m able to do that, how would I approach her?

“What happened before?”

”Are you still interested?”

“Are you with anyone presently?” 

Just a reminder of what's going on...or at least what you said is going on: you cut off contact with this person without an explanation. You might want to start the process of re-establishing contact with an explanation for your bizarre behavior, instead of any questions.

I would suggest a well composed, written explanation. One in which you assume full responsibility for everything that happened, without being overly dramatic. Good luck: it's a big hole you dug yourself into.

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I screwed up and may have destroyed whatever relationship I still had with her. 

After two weeks without contact, last week I did several things that I’m concerned may have betrayed my feelings for her.

One particularly painful morning, I knee-jerked into unfriending her on Facebook; a few hours later, I regretted severing my last connection to her, and sent her a friend request with an apology. I didn't explain that that the reason I unfriended her was that I don't want to accept a platonic friendship. When she asked whether I wanted to be her friend or not, all I could come up with was "I just want to stay connected on Facebook" and apologized again. She accepted.

The following day she called me to let me know that a mutual friend had been severely injured and was in the ICU, and wanted me to drive in with her and two other people to visit her. I didn't want to, but decided to suck this one up for our friend and go in with them. It was a huge mistake, beyond painful. I was very distant the whole time and barely said anything.    

The day after that, she called and told me that she could get me a job at her new workplace. For context, our workplace closed down at the end of July, and most people including me got laid off, but she was transferred to another site at the same company. Six weeks prior, while we were still seeing each other, I had asked her to try to pull strings to get me a job at the new site, and she came through. I thanked her for doing this, but said I’d already lined up a new job and that “I’d rather smash my nuts with a hammer for 40 hours a week than work there again.” She took great offense and rescinded the offer even after I apologized. In my mind, I thought I was just being a smartass, but subconsciously there may have been some resentment over her rejection of me (yes I believe she rejected and "friendzoned" me) behind that remark. I texted her a deeper apology later and she never replied. I suspect that will be my last communication with her.

Did my emotionally driven actions tell her that I still have strong feelings for her? Is there anywhere to go from here? I don't want to be friends, and she doesn't want to be romantically involved, so contacting her again seems inappropriate. 

Edited by iflyboats

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On 9/1/2018 at 1:37 PM, iflyboats said:

... a mutual friend had been severely injured and was in the ICU, and wanted me to drive in with her and two other people to visit her. I didn't want to, but decided to suck this one up for our friend and go in with them. It was a huge mistake, beyond painful. I was very distant the whole time and barely said anything.    

Just stop it with these dramatics already. From your descriptions, you come across as a spoiled brat, and she's mostly tolerating your crap.

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On 9/1/2018 at 1:37 PM, iflyboats said:

Is there anywhere to go from here?

Sure, but you've ignored basically every suggestion before. The hole continues to get deeper. What you've described is mostly self-sabotage. 

But is this a real scenario? The last thread you made, you admitted that it was fabricated. 

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21 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Sure, but you've ignored basically every suggestion before. The hole continues to get deeper. What you've described is mostly self-sabotage. 

But is this a real scenario? The last thread you made, you admitted that it was fabricated. 

yes, real

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What about the advice? Have you understood any of it (meaning, have you understood why it was given)? Have you tried any of it? Has any of it helped you in any way, so far?

Just so you know: the most important, in fact I would say crucial, advice you received in this thread (you got it from multiple people, not just me) was to try and date others (without necessarily giving up on this girl)...because you don't seem very good at romantic relationships, and the only way to get good at something is through practice.

Have you made any progress on that front? Have you tried? Do you intend to try?

Edited by Nicky

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On 9/4/2018 at 3:22 PM, Nicky said:

What about the advice? Have you understood any of it (meaning, have you understood why it was given)? Have you tried any of it? Has any of it helped you in any way, so far?

Just so you know: the most important, in fact I would say crucial, advice you received in this thread (you got it from multiple people, not just me) was to try and date others (without necessarily giving up on this girl)...because you don't seem very good at romantic relationships, and the only way to get good at something is through practice.

Have you made any progress on that front? Have you tried? Do you intend to try?

I haven’t done anything other than what I recounted in my previous post. Based on the pattern of events, I strongly believe she silently rejected me two months ago and is no longer interested. As for dating other people, I’ve been so focused on her for the last seven months that I have no interest in other women for now. My normal prospects pale in comparison. This is going to be very hard to move on from. 

Edited by iflyboats

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1 hour ago, iflyboats said:

I strongly believe she silently rejected me two months ago and is no longer interested.

The fact is, you can't really know this. This is why some sort of transparency or directness would have been wise. The only way you can know is to ask her, particularly because you gave every indication that you were not interested in her. 

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13 hours ago, Eiuol said:

The fact is, you can't really know this. This is why some sort of transparency or directness would have been wise. The only way you can know is to ask her, particularly because you gave every indication that you were not interested in her. 

I didn’t give every indication that I wasn’t interested in her. I gave mixed signals that I believe she rightfully took as representing timidity rather than disinterest. At this time it could not be much more clear that her level of attraction to me has fallen to an unsalvageably low level. It’s sad how bad I had to be to f*ck this up, because it started with her all but throwing her vagina at me a few months ago.

Edited by iflyboats

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18 hours ago, iflyboats said:

I haven’t done anything other than what I recounted in my previous post. Based on the pattern of events, I strongly believe she silently rejected me two months ago and is no longer interested. As for dating other people, I’ve been so focused on her for the last seven months that I have no interest in other women for now. My normal prospects pale in comparison. This is going to be very hard to move on from.  

I didn't suggest you move on from anything. My advice, that you should improve your communication, interaction, dating and relationship skills through practice with whoever is willing to go out with you, has nothing to do with moving on. You should do that for the sake of becoming a better person, not for any other purpose.

Quote

I have no interest in other women

That's irrelevant. Rational people don't just do what they feel interested in (that is whim worship, entirely antithetical to Reason), they try to act on what they rationally determine is in their best interest.

Do you agree that improving yourself in this area of life is in your best interest? If so, will you try and do it?

Edited by Nicky

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22 hours ago, Nicky said:

I didn't suggest you move on from anything. My advice, that you should improve your communication, interaction, dating and relationship skills through practice with whoever is willing to go out with you, has nothing to do with moving on. You should do that for the sake of becoming a better person, not for any other purpose.

That's irrelevant. Rational people don't just do what they feel interested in (that is whim worship, entirely antithetical to Reason), they try to act on what they rationally determine is in their best interest.

Do you agree that improving yourself in this area of life is in your best interest? If so, will you try and do it?

The idea is utterly daunting and I don’t know how or what to do but I definitely agree with doing what’s in my best interest.

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1 hour ago, iflyboats said:

The idea is utterly daunting and I don’t know how or what to do. 

A simple way of doing what I suggested is having coffee with someone. It's a few basic steps:

1. you suggest to a person that you should have coffee together

2. walk to a coffee shop together (or separately, if you weren't together)

3. find a table and order coffee (or the other way around, depends on the place)

4. drink the coffee

5. say goodbye

Are you saying that you find some of that daunting, or don't know how to do it? Which part?

Edited by Nicky

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