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Abortion Rights and Parental Obligations

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9 hours ago, Devil's Advocate said:
On 2/8/2019 at 10:03 AM, MisterSwig said:

What do you mean by "control"?

Have the ability to express deliberately autonomous actions, i.e. it's along for the ride.

I don't know what it means to "express" an action. I express thoughts and feelings, but I perform actions. A fetus can perform actions. It's not simply along for the ride. I might even call its actions semi-autonomous, in the sense that the nervous signals controlling its limbs come from its own brain, not the mother's. But indeed those actions are not deliberate, or intentional. They are unconscious, or reflexive. So, we agree that the baby during birth is not acting deliberately or with full autonomy. 

In an earlier post you wrote: "The whole concept of rights is dependent upon a choice of action, which a fetus certainly hasn't the ability to make, only the parent(s) do." Well, a newborn baby can't make a choice either, unless by "choice" you include an involuntary action. So it's not clear to me how and when humans acquire natural rights, in your view. I assume you think an actual human has rights. If so, what qualifies as an actual human? You said "follow the umbilical." Does this mean the baby becomes an actual human the moment the umbilical falls off naturally or when it's cut?

Edited by MisterSwig

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On 3/31/2019 at 7:01 PM, MisterSwig said:

So, we agree that the baby during birth is not acting deliberately or with full autonomy.  

Yes, along for the ride.

On 3/31/2019 at 7:01 PM, MisterSwig said:

Well, a newborn baby can't make a choice either, unless by "choice" you include an involuntary action.

I do not.

On 3/31/2019 at 7:01 PM, MisterSwig said:

Does this mean the baby becomes an actual human the moment the umbilical falls off naturally or when it's cut?

It becomes an individual, which is the appropriate context for the kind of rights you are arguing for.  Groups don't have rights, so coercing a pregnant individual not to have an abortion because a lot of other (well intentioned) individuals think so is a nonstarter. A majority of righted individuals cannot force the individual choice of another without negating their own rights.

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